Florida Condo Life

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nobbie48

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How does this happen?


Edit: Less than 48 hours, bodies likely still in the ruble and the first $5M lawsuit has been filed. Welcome to the USA.
 
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nobbie48 said:
How does this happen?


Edit: Less than 48 hours, bodies likely still in the ruble and the first $5M lawsuit has been filed. Welcome to the USA.
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disasters can happen any/everywhere, lets not get too high on our horse
 
bigpoppa said:
disasters can happen any/everywhere, lets not get too high on our horse
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I serviced condos, sat as president of one and am reasonably familiar with Ontario regulations. Yes it can happen here too. Grey Ghost has posted a better thread in Trash talk with a video showing the collapse.

BTW a unit in the industrial complex where I was located was blown up by persons unknown. Yes Dynamite. No injuries as it was the middle of the night.
 
NEED FASTER said:
Yes, lets not forget...
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I knew a property manager that had to sign a demolition order for a almost new condo. IIRC it was in the Sudbury area. There was a townhouse project in Alberta that had to be condemned. A building in TO near Jane / 401 almost had the garage collapse. Numerous LTC fires. The list goes on but the middle of the night collapse on camera is like one of the USA demolition extravaganzas.

I was at a dog and pony show for what was then Skydome and it was pointed out that the structure was not critical, a house of cards that would collapse if one member was damaged. It'll be a while before we know the cause. Was the building critical or were there numerous known problems and they were ignored, the straw breaking the camel's back?
 
While not an "official" failure analysis, this thread will grow to explore every conceivable detail ... Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse - Engineering Failures & Disasters - Eng-Tips

It is already suspected that at least some of the floors were built without sufficient concrete cover over the rebar (i.e. the rebar is too close to the surface of the concrete to be able to properly transfer stresses between the steel and the concrete).

Long-term corrosion is a problem with reinforced concrete in a damp environment (it rains in Florida, and the building is close to the salt-water beach).
 
Let's not forget this either
www.gtamotorcycle.com

Florida bridge collapse solved...

Crazy story. Big time failure somewhere, and here's some early-analysis OTR-making news. http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/random-canadian-finds-the-smoking-gun-in-florida-bridge-collapse The videos in that story are here, and are an interesting technical look at some on-line engineer...
www.gtamotorcycle.com www.gtamotorcycle.com
 
It happens when you cut corners or cheap out on materials. Look at bridges in Quebec, the Gardiner overpass, even resurfaced asphalt roads (the aggregate mix is mixed with waste materials and there’s big money in waste).
 
Glad I live in a bungalow!

Can you imagine if there's actually people still alive and buried beneath all that unstable rubble?
How long could a person live without food or water, especially in the Florida summer heat?
It's hard to imagine a worst way to go. Survive a horrendous building collapse like that only to be buried under
a pile of rubble that prevents you from being rescued yet you can hear people digging for days on end :(
 
Green Meenie said:
Glad I live in a bungalow!

Can you imagine if there's actually people still alive and buried beneath all that unstable rubble?
How long could a person live without food or water, especially in the Florida summer heat?
It's hard to imagine a worst way to go. Survive a horrendous building collapse like that only to be buried under
a pile of rubble that prevents you from being rescued yet you can hear people digging for days on end :(
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Between the collapse, standing water and the fumes from the fires I would be shocked if they find a survivor at this point. Just a pile of bad luck for the residents.
 
Some comments from studies done in 2018. As the commentator states these are not necessarily the cause of the collapse. However the background is enough to make those who could have done something more proactive have sleepless nights.


Why was the work deferred?

In most cases it isn't different than any repair, high rise, low rise, car, bike or boat. It isn't financially convenient. Just about everyone in the repair business has been asked "Can I run it a bit longer?" or "Can you just put a patch on it?" It's never a convenient time to spend money on a repair. People get so used to deferring that they assume it can go on forever.

I wasn't aware of the forty year recertification process in Florida and I'm not sure what structures are included. Nor do I know if we have similar studies.

Being purely speculative, who deferred acting on the report?

The money problem being that the $9 million fix-up would mean $66,000 per suite tacked onto the mortgages. That isn't something that the board of directors can just whip through so it would likely been hacked about during an annual general meeting or special meeting.

What percent of the suites are owner occupied and what percent are rentals? Renters may not have been aware of the severity of the problems and the owners may have playing the tomorrow game.
 
I have a dumb question about condo ownership. There are millions of condo units that "someone owns" which are within apartment buildings. Whether the owner lives there or rents it out is irrelevant.

Reinforced concrete doesn't last forever. What happens when that huge apartment building with hundreds of units within it that "someone owns", comes to the end of its life - either by collapse from structural failure, or getting to the point where the structure is beyond economic repair?

If my house collapses, I still own the plot of land that it sits on - which is arguably worth more than the house itself.
 
Brian P said:
I have a dumb question about condo ownership. There are millions of condo units that "someone owns" which are within apartment buildings. Whether the owner lives there or rents it out is irrelevant.

Reinforced concrete doesn't last forever. What happens when that huge apartment building with hundreds of units within it that "someone owns", comes to the end of its life - either by collapse from structural failure, or getting to the point where the structure is beyond economic repair?

If my house collapses, I still own the plot of land that it sits on - which is arguably worth more than the house itself.
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It is a very interesting question that I don't know the answer too. Co-ops are much simpler in that regard as you own 1.2% of the development as opposed to Unit 402 and parking spot 11 and a portion of the common areas. If a co-op collapsed, presumably you'd owe 1.2% of the site cleanup bill and get 1.2% of the sale price (minus some fees). If Unit 402 and parking spot 11 no longer exist, what do you own?

I suspect that falling down is better for you (if you survive) than beyond economical repair. A collapse triggers insurance. I don't know if they are sufficiently insured to rebuild but at least it's something. Beyond economical repair, the value of the condo drops to zero as nobody wants to get stuck with the hot potato. I haven't looked recently but a decade ago there were some condo-townhouses in Malton for cheap (~half the price of similar units in other developments). Condo fees for those units (which did not have ridiculous amenities) were something like $1000 when comparable developments were <$200. I don't know if they had screwed up the reserve fund or things were falling apart but it was obviously enough to scare buyers away.

An acquaintance in interior BC owned a typical hi-rise condo unit. Part of the condo development was townhouses which were sliding down the hill and most likely were going to need to be destroyed. He wanted to sell his condo (which was entirely structurally sound with no issues) and the market price had taken a beating. The best guess was $100K per unit special assessment was coming to clean up the townhouse mess. It was a guess, so the market was pricing in a $200K+ special assessment as the buyers wanted some room in case the guess was low. This was ~30% hit to the condo price.
 
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If the situation is that you could be liable for repair costs in the event of major structural damage, it's way simpler than that. Never invest money in a condo.

I paid to have the roof of my house re-shingled last year. Knew the expense was coming. Budgeted for it. Job done. End.
 
Moms condo needed the roof of the parking garage removed and repaired, the outdoor parking is on the roof of the below grade garage. So much salt had been dumped over 25yrs on the rooftop parking , under examination , the rebar was all rotted out and concrete was spalling.
Estimate was 15k assessment per condo unit, payable in 5K lumps over 1 yr. You couldn't pay it in one installment . The reason was if they went over budget and needed 25K per unit they could just up the number.

Watch as all these 25-35yr old buildings with roof top pools , living gardens and massive glass walled elevators need service. Richy Rich units will get looked after. $329k starter condos will fall down .
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