TK4
Well-known member
Don't confuse him with facts, his mind is made up - insurance companies are our friends !
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Find a soft wall to bang your head against
- Thread starter nobbie48
- Start date
F3800RC
Well-known member
yes this is industry average . I posted links that showed some insurers asked for decreases while others asked for increases, Im not sure what you are on about . Read the link I posted it breaks down increases or decrease by company not overall. We all know on average rates are up no one is arguing that .
F3800RC
Well-known member
Don’t confuse yourself with facts , you said you never saw decreases , I posted the info that shows there have been decreases on a company to company basis. He posted industry averages . If you hate insurance so much I encourage you to take the highest deductible possible and self insure as much as you can within the law. No one is stopping you from putting your money where your mouth is
TK4
Well-known member
So a 19% overall average increase in the last two years doesn't matter ? The decreases you posted were miniscule and random at best. I don't hate insurance, it is necessary evil, a BUSINESS run to generate profits for shareholders while providing a service at a price. You're grasping at straws trying to defend the indefensible. That's why a provincial inquiry is needed. Self insuring is not an option for most folks, which is why so many end up driving/riding dirty.
To quote Mad Mike, "Free market -- nope, insurance in Ontario is not governed by free market economics, by definition it's a cartel with 3 collaborating players: FSCO (regulator), individual insurance companies, and the IBC (collective insurance association/lobby)."
And you don't like CMG Online - sorry to hear that.
TK4
Well-known member
From your avatar pic and your list of rides, do you mind if I ask how you pay a year for motor vehicle insurance ? I'll have to bet its a bundle.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Rate decreases in 2007 are hardly significant now. Face the facts:
1) Rates are not determined by actuaries, they look mostly at where profits can be extracted. What would a vehicle be considered low risk in markets where the actuarial data on premiums/payouts must be made public, yet in Ontario it's considered a high risk vehicle? I had this happen to me when I moved to Canada, my Jaguar sedan was in the lowest risk category in California as they are typically owned by older responsible drivers. Same in Ontario yet that car was classified in the highest risk category. Why? Because Jaguar owners have the means to pay the high premiums in the eyes of Ontario insurers, the best way for actuaries to juice profits if to high risk expensive and popular cars.
2) Insurance companies do not typically assign actuaries to MC markets, they use demographic data for cars. This sets up a bit of a silly situation: 45-65 year old car drivers are the lowest risk while driving cars, yet they represent the most fatalities and expensive payouts for MCs, considerably higher than 25-45. But since ins cos use auto demographics to determine bike risks, the 45+ crowd pays less than 1/2 the price of 25-45 MC riders.
3) The 19% industry average over the last 2 years is actually higher for MCs as many companies filed to exclude offering insurance to new riders and categories of bikes.
F3800RC
Well-known member
You don’t want to take on more risk cause it’s a losing proposition but you want to pay less money to the people willing to take on that risk. Think about that for a second .
mad mike doesnt know what he is talking about there is no collaboration . He fits your narrative that is all.
take on more risk yourself or appreciate someone else is willing to do it .
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F3800RC
Well-known member
1) so insurance companies are paying actuaries to sit and do nothing ? your jaguar story is BS. my mclaren is cheaper to insure than my RAM, one is driven year round in the worst conditions and one isn’t and is owned by people who generally have multiple cars.
no one is surcharging Jaguars , they aren’t considered that high end. honda civics are high surcharge due to theft and users
2) yes correct most motorcycle deaths are people 40 plus, death isn’t expensive, injuries are . And most injuries are younger riders , especially catastrophic injuries . Younger riders are surcharged for years of being licensed not age. My 37 year old friend just got quoted 9000 for a S1000rr as he just got his licence . It’s not age it’s experience and most of those 40 year old plus riders have years of being licenced, they don’t have actual riding experince but they do have years of being licensed. Unfortunate there isn’t a way to insure based on riding skill which I wish there was
3) what does it matter what the increase is if they aren’t making money?
AGAIN I ENCOURAGE YOU TO TAKE A BIG DEDUCTIBLE OR SELF INSURE WHERE YOU CAN IF YOU FEEL THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH BUT JUST LIKE TK4 YOU WONT BECAUSE YOU REALIZE ITS NOT WORTH IT FOR YOU TO TAKE ON THAT RISK .
PUT UP OR SHHHHHHHHH
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TK4
Well-known member
One thing you fail to point out is something Warren Buffet points out (he owns Geicko, the US insurance giant, through Berkshire Hathaway) is that it's a licence to print money ... They take in premiums up front and even when they do have to pay out, they've generally held the money for years and that cash flow is poured into investments, which are a huge source of income for insurers.
Where motorcyclists get screwed is through no-fault ... essentially injury claims aren't spread out across the entire liability spectrum but rather the motorcycle subset, even though the bulk of injury claims resulting from collisions involve at-fault car drivers.
Canadians would benefit if our insurance market availed itself to U.S. insurers and their vast pool.
Where motorcyclists get screwed is through no-fault ... essentially injury claims aren't spread out across the entire liability spectrum but rather the motorcycle subset, even though the bulk of injury claims resulting from collisions involve at-fault car drivers.
Canadians would benefit if our insurance market availed itself to U.S. insurers and their vast pool.
TK4
Well-known member
No, I don't feel better. You can afford the expensive toys and the insurance that goes with - good for you, you've got the money so spend it.
But please don't presume to speak for the vast majority of motor vehicle, specifically motorcycle operators, in this province that are carrying a disproportionate share of the load while insurance companies are getting away with highway robbery.
Self-insurance is not a realistic option, to suggest it is specious.
You don't like it when Mad Mike disputes your dubious pontifications with facts, and that's too bad.
What are you so afraid of - your premiums might go down too ???
A provincial inquiry could clear the air, point out the inherent problems as they currently exist and perhaps even support some of the insurers' positions - but I doubt it.
You're coming across as an entitled little rich boy who somehow has a reason to act as a shill for big insurance. Prove me wrong.
TK4
Well-known member
How anyone can praise the "free market" with respect to a mandatory scheme with all benefits defined by statute is beyond me.Hmmm. New guy seems rich, likes cars and bikes, has attitude and seems like an insurance owner. Sonny The Bull, is that you?
Sent from my SM-A530W using Tapatalk
If it were truly a free market, I could choose to insure with ICBC, Hagerty's, or whoever. Or not at all and take my chances.
F3800RC
Well-known member
ahhh and there comes out the ad hominem attacks. jealousy is an ugly thing you wrestle with. I have pointed out facts you don’t like them. Why wouldn’t you self insure if the insurance companies aren’t paying claims and making huge profits according to you ? Wouldn’t you want to keep all that money for yourself . Just so you know many huge companies who have the money to self insure such as Rogers and Irving oil choose not to.
why? Because they know it’s a money loser for them and they arent willing to risk their own capital, think about that .
you have no clue as to reality and neither does anyone who thinks that insurance is a big hugely profitable game that is ripping off the public.
F3800RC
Well-known member
You can get a get a quote wherever you want and you can choose to self insure for Physical Damage and again take a big deductible . .you want a quote from ICBC do ya? enjoy this link
ICBC LOSES 860 MILLION IN 9 MONTHS
TK4
Well-known member
The ad hominem fallacy is a logical fallacy in which an argument attacks a person rather than addressing the content of a person’s message or idea. By criticizing the person, the verbal abuser aims to invalidate their argument when, in fact, they are using a fallacy and thus invalidating their own argument without even realizing it.
How have I done that ? I have no reason to be jealous of you - I don't know you. Your toys and your money are to do with as you see fit. I don't see how I've invalidated anything.
Self insurance is not an option for the vast (think 99.9%) majority of motor vehicle operators in this province. How many folks have $1,000,000 liquid assets available to post as bond ? Stop being ridiculous.
We're not talking large companies here, we're talking individuals - don't change the subject.
What are you so afraid of ? A provincial inquiry could clear the air, make transparent things that currently go on behind closed doors and maybe even prove the current insurance companies operating here are in the right.
As for ICBC, or any other insurer not currently operating in this province, it doesn't matter -I can't shop around - the system doesn't allow it.
Are you an insurance broker, or do you work for one ? That would explain a lot....
F3800RC
Well-known member
you used a personal insult so you lost the argument, that’s the point. When you can’t debate you insult . That’s a loss .
the Fact you say you can’t shop around shows how you have no clue what you are talking about, no one is stopping you from shopping around ...go to www.lowestrates.ca and shop all you want
take a huge deductible and self insure everything but liability if you believe the system is ripping you off. I’m not afraid of anything ,there have been inquiries into insurance costs and liberals even promised a 15 percent mandated decrease in Ontario. Remember that?
what happened? Once the insurers lowered the auto rates they had massive losses and when the next reduction was due they showed their financials to the liberals and the decrease didn’t happen.
you need to learn.
I’m not defending the industry ( there are a lot of idiots in it ) I am defending the right of any company to make money and if they aren’t they should charge appropriately. There is no conspiracy or hidden piles of profit , do your research .
there are multiple companies that stopping writing certain lines of business all together , AIG stopped all personal insurance in canada last year. Why would they do that if it was a “ licence to print money “ according to you .
maybe you should move to Nova Scotia
TK4
Well-known member
Find the lowest rates anywhere... Instantly! does not include motorcycles. Try again.
How did I personally insult you ? Please enlighten me.
I've learned that a public, transparent inquiry that the previous Liberal provincial government promised (for 15 years), and the current Conservative government has promised hasn't happened. Put it all out in the open - seems simple ? Maybe you're right - but the way things are now we'll never know.
You ARE defending the industry. Mad Mike and I both have done research with the public information that is available but when those facts are presented to you, you dismiss them.
An 18% increase in premiums over the last 2 years is nothing to be ignored and should be publicly justified.
I don't live in B.C. or Nova Scotia, I live in Ontario.
At the risk of repeating myself - what are you so afraid of ? Let the truth come out - if this is the way it is so be it, but the way things are now we'll never know...
How did I personally insult you ? Please enlighten me.
I've learned that a public, transparent inquiry that the previous Liberal provincial government promised (for 15 years), and the current Conservative government has promised hasn't happened. Put it all out in the open - seems simple ? Maybe you're right - but the way things are now we'll never know.
You ARE defending the industry. Mad Mike and I both have done research with the public information that is available but when those facts are presented to you, you dismiss them.
An 18% increase in premiums over the last 2 years is nothing to be ignored and should be publicly justified.
I don't live in B.C. or Nova Scotia, I live in Ontario.
At the risk of repeating myself - what are you so afraid of ? Let the truth come out - if this is the way it is so be it, but the way things are now we'll never know...
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Where do you get this stuff?
I think you're just trolling the forum -- you don't seem to have any insight into insurance.
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