Anyone have any experience with energy (electricity) resellers?

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why can't you tell them you are moving,, and want the final bill for the account... and you have no idea who is moving in... the new tenant will have to call to take over the new account ... then,, if you decide not to move,, you could always sign up for that account again,,
 
CruisnGrrl said:
with solar I'm guessing a 100W panel creates 100 Watts/hour peak and after 10 hours of full sunlight I would have 1 kiloWatt.
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not really,,, 100w panel will only put out something to do with the availability of the sun.. so early in the 10hrs,, it will be 10watts [guessing at numbers] ... noon it will be i dunno, lets say 80 watts, depending on the time of year as the angle of the sun makes a big difference,, and I think it is less than 80,, but just saying.
Then in the late portion of the 10hrs it is back to almost nothing again..

as for your math,,, actually,, 100watts is 0.1 kw... and 10hrs of 0.1kw is 10 kwhr ...
10kwhr is a way to bill your usage..... it is like saying you spent $0.10 at the fish pond because you threw in $0.01 every hour for 10 hrs
you have to remember ,, you only had one cent available to use...

so,, you only have 100 watts to use in your solar idea... actually,, I said , you might have 10watts to 80 watts ....
where as when you are connected to the grid,, you have up to 100amp service.. 240volt.. is 24,000 watts avail... and if you use a 1000watt microwave for 1 minute,, you have used 1kw x 1/60hr x $0.10/kwhr = 1.6 cents

if you have a 100watt panel,, you cannot use a 1000 watt appliance..

CruisnGrrl said:
With my usage of 15kWhr a day I'd want to be able to generate 20kW to cover when i use more than average, and winter time because we have less sun (do we even get 10 hours?) I would need to compensate for that with more panels... I suppose this is something I could do gradual adding one system at a time to my personal grid. I kinda wish I had propane installed when I replaced my water heater last spring, I could have had them plumb spots to the stove, furnace and dryer.
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If you want to have 20 KW avail to use... you need 2 of those tracking style arrays...
and a battery bank to store the energy.... as you might not need lights at noon when the panels are making max power..

with 100watt panels.. you need 100 panels to make 10KW of power... <blackboard magic not reality>
you could probably use 50 panels,,, if you don't want to use electric clothes dryer.. or electric water heater, because they are usually 4.5kw elements,, and I doubt a 5kw array would support 4.5kw

They built a house in Kitchener a while ago.. put 50 x 100w panels on the roof,, and everything was on gas in the house, they also made the windows so they deflected heat in the summer,, so less AC load.. and allowed heat in the winter,, so less heating load... and they added things like living plant walls, and tunnels to take cold air from underground to assist in climate control with natural energy...
it is ok for someone living alone.. that doesn't need to do anything after dark... but they were still connected to the grid.. so they could turn on power if they chose to........ no longer allowed..

The town of Belleville wasn't too happy with O.H. back in the day... so they proposed to generate power from a water source... as they calc it would supply their needs..... well... there was legislation that no one but O.H. could generate power... so they called a meeting to tell O.H.... toooo bad! ... they were going ahead and O.H. could sue them! they would take their chances in court.

O.H.'s reply was way out of expectation.... O.H.closed their books... stood up to walk out of the meeting.. and said.. Well... go ahead ... generate your own power,,, we won't sue.... up to you,,,, but our records show that in the big heating months, and AC months of the year.... the city needs <pick a number> 200 mw,,, and your generation can't produce 200 mw during aug when there is no water flow... and in the january,, when there is no water flow....

The city replied,,, ahh... no problem,, we will buy power from you at that point then.

LOL.... O.H.said.... well if there is NO LOAD on our system, generation, wires, transformer assets... and no revenue , then we will be removing those assets and placing them where they make revenue.... OH did not plan to keep millions of dollars of assets avail *IF* it was needed...

good luck with your endeavor... there a lots of people who live off the grid... but they stop trying to use electricity.. and turn to other sources of energy ,,, like wood for cooking , heating, oil for lamps,, draw your bath water in the morning,, so it is room temp in the evening when you want to bathe... etc etc...

buy perishables daily,, no refrigeration needed.. if you buy what you need for dinner on the way home.. 500ml of milk, 6 pack of beer, fresh meat, vegetables and fruit last a few days .... probably a big lifestyle change

mind you ,, there are [propane] gas appliances avail,, stoves, lights, fridges, heaters, but compare the prices of that energy...
 
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CruisnGrrl said:
with solar I'm guessing a 100W panel creates 100 Watts/hour peak and after 10 hours of full sunlight I would have 1 kiloWatt. With my usage of 15kW a day I'd want to be able to generate 20kW to cover when i use more than average, and winter time because we have less sun (do we even get 10 hours?) I would need to compensate for that with more panels... I suppose this is something I could do gradual adding one system at a time to my personal grid. I kinda wish I had propane installed when I replaced my water heater last spring, I could have had them plumb spots to the stove, furnace and dryer.
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Electricity needs to be produced on demand unless you have massive battery banks to store the electricity. So, a 100W panel will produce enough electricity to light up a 100w light bulb. If you wanted to run a 1500W appliance such as a microwave oven, hair dryer, room heater, etc. you would need 15 panels to cover the use of that appliance alone. If you want to use your microwave oven while you are using your hairdryer, you would require 30 panels. If your refridgerator was to start up while you were doing that, you would require another 15 panels to handle that load. If you wanted to use your conventional oven, or your clothes dryer you would require about 50 panels for each of those alone.

As you can see, unless you are going to swear off electricity and all the convenience that it brings, it is virtually impossible to power your home with solar panels. Of course, you could always rent a farmer's field and put up about 200 panels that might supply all your needs, but without a massive amount of battery storage attached to your little "grid" (I suspect enough batteries to fill a 1000 square foot building + you will need more panels to charge the batteries), you will only get electricity when the sun shines on the panels.
 
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CruisnGrrl said:
Just got my bill from hydro one the other day and i'm steaming mad. :cussing:

I use less electricity than ever, (~15kW/D down from 30) yet my bill is higher than ever.
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This didn't make sense until I looked into it;

http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/role/wholesaleCharges.asp
"Rural and Remote Electricity Rate Protection
Wholesale Market Service Charges also include the Rural and Remote Electricity Rate Protection charge, which is used to partly offset the higher cost of providing electricity in rural and remote areas of the province. The Rural and Remote Electricity Rate charge of 0.12¢/kWh is in effect as of Jan. 1, 2013."

That would more than double your rate, which explains perfectly why halving your consumption has had no effect. I wouldn't expect any reseller to be able to avoid that charge either, except in their marketing material.
 
GreyGhost said:
I was just going from this:
https://www.enbridgegas.com/homes/accounts-billing/understand-your-bill/adjustment-your-bill/
Removal of meter $280.00 Covers the cost of a construction and maintenance crew removing your meter.

It's good to know that they don't enforce all of their policies, I would have expected them to collect money wherever they could.
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that charge is to cut off the service. If they remove the meter they will leave the service inactive for 1 year, then after 1 year they will put it in for a cut off and bill for the cut off, but the cutoff is a lot more then that. If you are serious about removing your meter pm me and I will help you.

Sent from my GT-N8010 using Tapatalk HD
 
fastar1 said:
This didn't make sense until I looked into it;

http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/role/wholesaleCharges.asp
"Rural and Remote Electricity Rate Protection
Wholesale Market Service Charges also include the Rural and Remote Electricity Rate Protection charge, which is used to partly offset the higher cost of providing electricity in rural and remote areas of the province. The Rural and Remote Electricity Rate charge of 0.12¢/kWh is in effect as of Jan. 1, 2013."

That would more than double your rate, which explains perfectly why halving your consumption has had no effect. I wouldn't expect any reseller to be able to avoid that charge either, except in their marketing material.
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Better check your arithmetic, fastar1! How is including a rural rate charge of 0.12 cents per kWh going to double her rates? If she was previously paying an average of 8 cents per kWh, with the rural rate charge added in, her rate would increase to 8.12 cents per kWh. At her stated rate of consumption (15 KW per day) the rural rate charge would add only 1.8 cents per day onto her bill (or about 55 cents per month.)

Probably what is really making her hydro bill double is the Global Adjustment charge. This is added to pay for all those wind farms and solar installations that are receiving up to 75 cents per kW of electricity they produce (as opposed to the 5.5 cents per kW that OPG receives -regulated by the OEB.) The Global adjustment charge is added to your bill whether you are with an independent electricity retailer or not.

Now is everyone starting to see the true cost of renewable energy? The Global Adjustment charge has doubled your electricity bill in the past couple of years.
 
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ike said:
Better check your arithmetic, fastar1! How is including a rural rate charge of 0.12 cents per kWh going to double her rates? If she was previously paying an average of 8 cents per kWh, with the rural rate charge added in, her rate would increase to 8.12 cents per kWh. At her stated rate of consumption (15 KW per day) the rural rate charge would add only 1.8 cents per day onto her bill.

Probably what is really making her hydro bill double is the Global Adjustment charge. This is added to pay for all those wind farms and solar installations that are receiving up to 75 cents per kW of electricity they produce (as opposed to the 5.5 cents per kW that OPG receives -regulated by the OEB.) The Global adjustment charge is added to your bill whether you are with an independent electricity retailer or not.

Now is everyone starting to see the true cost of renewable energy? The Global Adjustment charge has doubled your electricity bill in the past couple of years.
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Ah thanks, I read it as 0.12 dollars not 0.12 cents.

But then her cost remains unexplained, as rates are pretty much the same this year as last year, so reducing her consumption (by half!) should have reduced her bill.
 
fastar1 said:
Ah thanks, I read it as 0.12 dollars not 0.12 cents.

But then her cost remains unexplained, as rates are pretty much the same this year as last year, so reducing her consumption (by half!) should have reduced her bill.
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The Global Adjustment charge is responsible for her increased bills. The GA charge for August was approx 6.25 cents per kWh. The projected charge for September is nearly 9 cents per kWh. This amount is added onto the time of use rates that you pay your electrical utility. (Source - http://www.ieso.ca/imoweb/b100/b100_GA.asp ) Is it any wonder that her bill has stayed the same in spite of using half the electricity?

The Global Adjustment charge is added so that we pay the cost of the electricity produced by solar and wind power. Wind power producers are currently receiving about 18 cents/kWh and solar power producers are receiving up to 75 cents/kWh. OPG receives a regulated rate of about 5.5 cents/kWh. The real kick in the pants is this... solar and wind producers are guaranteed under their contracts that all of the electricity they produce will be purchased and fed into the grid, even if that means that OPG has to shut down generating capacity to allow them to do so. That is worth repeating... OPG must shut down their cheap (5.5 cents/kWh) electrical production to allow vastly more expensive solar and wind generated electricity (up to 75 cents/kWh) whenever the sun shines or the wind blows. This is the reason why the government wants to pay them to NOT produce electricity. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? The more solar and wind generation that comes online, the higher the Global Adjustment charge will go. We ain't seen nothin' yet!
 
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going solar I would assume i would need batteries, I have space for that. I also realize that all though I have average of 15 kW a day I don't need to have all 15kWh at once. I would need a couple decent inverters and enough batteries that would be able to give the amps for the stuff that uses it when it needs it, but other than my fridge and internet nothing is on 24/7
 
Our cottage was off the grid so I have first hand solar experience. We bought bell Canada surplus batteries from a recyclers so our battery bank was a reasonable cost.
One thing to remember is solar panels degrade in output, a 100 w panel will not produce that output over its life they drop 3-5 percent and after 15 yrs may need replaced.
If the system is on a roof factor in a huge bill to remove the system to reshingle or recoat a flat roof deck. We had gas for critical appliances, fridge,stove,dryer.
If you can get a grant or an idiot deal like the wind farmers are getting, off grid makes sense. It's a happy green story but it's a lifestyle not economics yet.
 
crankcall said:
Our cottage was off the grid so I have first hand solar experience. We bought bell Canada surplus batteries from a recyclers so our battery bank was a reasonable cost.
One thing to remember is solar panels degrade in output, a 100 w panel will not produce that output over its life they drop 3-5 percent and after 15 yrs may need replaced.
If the system is on a roof factor in a huge bill to remove the system to reshingle or recoat a flat roof deck. We had gas for critical appliances, fridge,stove,dryer.
If you can get a grant or an idiot deal like the wind farmers are getting, off grid makes sense. It's a happy green story but it's a lifestyle not economics yet.
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doing further research it looks like I could get away with a 5kW system, but for that I'm probably looking at 15k minimum (with me doing most of the work myself). At current prices and the rate I use electricity it would take 12.5 years to pay that off (and i don't expect prices to be any better in 5 years, never mind 12). so if we take a wild guess on what electricity is going to cost in 10 years, it could pay off it's self in 9 years...

If i switched the water heater, dryer and stove to propane I could probably get away with a 3kW system. but i'm not sure the $ savings would be there switching out currently working appliances.

I think I'd also toss a wind turbine into the mix. not one of those giant ones you see on wind farms though... I wonder how hard it is to get one of those grants.
 
meester_jamie said:
not really,,, 100w panel will only put out something to do with the availability of the sun.. so early in the 10hrs,, it will be 10watts [guessing at numbers] ... noon it will be i dunno, lets say 80 watts, depending on the time of year as the angle of the sun makes a big difference,, and I think it is less than 80,, but just saying.
Then in the late portion of the 10hrs it is back to almost nothing again..

as for your math,,, actually,, 100watts is 0.1 kw... and 10hrs of 0.1kw is 10 kwhr ...
10kwhr is a way to bill your usage..... it is like saying you spent $0.10 at the fish pond because you threw in $0.01 every hour for 10 hrs
you have to remember ,, you only had one cent available to use...

so,, you only have 100 watts to use in your solar idea... actually,, I said , you might have 10watts to 80 watts ....
where as when you are connected to the grid,, you have up to 100amp service.. 240volt.. is 24,000 watts avail... and if you use a 1000watt microwave for 1 minute,, you have used 1kw x 1/60hr x $0.10/kwhr = 1.6 cents

if you have a 100watt panel,, you cannot use a 1000 watt appliance..



If you want to have 20 KW avail to use... you need 2 of those tracking style arrays...
and a battery bank to store the energy.... as you might not need lights at noon when the panels are making max power..

with 100watt panels.. you need 100 panels to make 10KW of power... <blackboard magic not reality>
you could probably use 50 panels,,, if you don't want to use electric clothes dryer.. or electric water heater, because they are usually 4.5kw elements,, and I doubt a 5kw array would support 4.5kw

They built a house in Kitchener a while ago.. put 50 x 100w panels on the roof,, and everything was on gas in the house, they also made the windows so they deflected heat in the summer,, so less AC load.. and allowed heat in the winter,, so less heating load... and they added things like living plant walls, and tunnels to take cold air from underground to assist in climate control with natural energy...
it is ok for someone living alone.. that doesn't need to do anything after dark... but they were still connected to the grid.. so they could turn on power if they chose to........ no longer allowed..

The town of Belleville wasn't too happy with O.H. back in the day... so they proposed to generate power from a water source... as they calc it would supply their needs..... well... there was legislation that no one but O.H. could generate power... so they called a meeting to tell O.H.... toooo bad! ... they were going ahead and O.H. could sue them! they would take their chances in court.

O.H.'s reply was way out of expectation.... O.H.closed their books... stood up to walk out of the meeting.. and said.. Well... go ahead ... generate your own power,,, we won't sue.... up to you,,,, but our records show that in the big heating months, and AC months of the year.... the city needs <pick a number> 200 mw,,, and your generation can't produce 200 mw during aug when there is no water flow... and in the january,, when there is no water flow....

The city replied,,, ahh... no problem,, we will buy power from you at that point then.

LOL.... O.H.said.... well if there is NO LOAD on our system, generation, wires, transformer assets... and no revenue , then we will be removing those assets and placing them where they make revenue.... OH did not plan to keep millions of dollars of assets avail *IF* it was needed...

good luck with your endeavor... there a lots of people who live off the grid... but they stop trying to use electricity.. and turn to other sources of energy ,,, like wood for cooking , heating, oil for lamps,, draw your bath water in the morning,, so it is room temp in the evening when you want to bathe... etc etc...

buy perishables daily,, no refrigeration needed.. if you buy what you need for dinner on the way home.. 500ml of milk, 6 pack of beer, fresh meat, vegetables and fruit last a few days .... probably a big lifestyle change

mind you ,, there are [propane] gas appliances avail,, stoves, lights, fridges, heaters, but compare the prices of that energy...
Click to expand...

Well put. Nothing like a dose of reality to make us realize how screwed we are.

The "Alternate energy" discussions have been going on for decades and to me the bottom line is that unless you have a government grant it's not going to be cheaper when the cost of equipment and service comes into play.

There are common sense things one can do to reduce usage but not many people are prepared to make the lifestyle changes that are needed to make it work economically. Meester J points out a few ie no refrigeration. No air conditioning, Hand pump at the well to a water tower, oil lamps with the smoke and fire risks etc.

Are you prepared to give up all the free time that your monthly bill gives you?

Take a nice ride down to around Millersburg Ohio. Really nice roads, cheap and intersting things to see and do. It's Amish country. Ask about their lifestyle. I find them easy to talk to if you aren't pushy. Nice trip and you might get some good ideas.

If I was in the country I would be looking at putting an old pickup truck in a shed and using the engine to run a decent sized farm generator. It would supply power for wash day etc. Scavange the waste heat from the engine to make hot water or house heat in the winter. I'm sure the local officials would not be pleased and inspectors would be like gnats at a fish camp.

Plan B: Take the money you would be spending on a high tech off the grid system and invest it in an energy company. Use the dividends to pay down your power bill.

I have yet to see a complex system that makes financial sense. They are either government sponsered units, corporate tax schemes or gadgets for wealthy tinkerers.
 
nobbie48 said:
Well put. Nothing like a dose of reality to make us realize how screwed we are.

The "Alternate energy" discussions have been going on for decades and to me the bottom line is that unless you have a government grant it's not going to be cheaper when the cost of equipment and service comes into play.

There are common sense things one can do to reduce usage but not many people are prepared to make the lifestyle changes that are needed to make it work economically. Meester J points out a few ie no refrigeration. No air conditioning, Hand pump at the well to a water tower, oil lamps with the smoke and fire risks etc.

Are you prepared to give up all the free time that your monthly bill gives you?

Take a nice ride down to around Millersburg Ohio. Really nice roads, cheap and intersting things to see and do. It's Amish country. Ask about their lifestyle. I find them easy to talk to if you aren't pushy. Nice trip and you might get some good ideas.

If I was in the country I would be looking at putting an old pickup truck in a shed and using the engine to run a decent sized farm generator. It would supply power for wash day etc. Scavange the waste heat from the engine to make hot water or house heat in the winter. I'm sure the local officials would not be pleased and inspectors would be like gnats at a fish camp.

Plan B: Take the money you would be spending on a high tech off the grid system and invest it in an energy company. Use the dividends to pay down your power bill.

I have yet to see a complex system that makes financial sense. They are either government sponsered units, corporate tax schemes or gadgets for wealthy tinkerers.
Click to expand...

The pickup truck is a cool idea, but likely way more expensive than buying off the grid (assuming you had it running very often). You are probably looking at about 2 liters per hour at idle, obviously a lot more if you revved it up.

My electricity bill is about $2 per day, no alternate solution will ever come close to that price. This is considering operating costs only (maintenance, batteries, fuel, etc). If capital costs are considered, it would be a disaster.
 
GreyGhost said:
The pickup truck is a cool idea, but likely way more expensive than buying off the grid (assuming you had it running very often). You are probably looking at about 2 liters per hour at idle, obviously a lot more if you revved it up.

My electricity bill is about $2 per day, no alternate solution will ever come close to that price. This is considering operating costs only (maintenance, batteries, fuel, etc). If capital costs are considered, it would be a disaster.
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The cluncker truck / generator would only be used for peak loads when the solar / wind systems wouldn't supply enough juice. That means a smaller gathering system and smaller bank of batteries to buy and maintain.
 
nobbie48 said:
The cluncker truck / generator would only be used for peak loads when the solar / wind systems wouldn't supply enough juice. That means a smaller gathering system and smaller bank of batteries to buy and maintain.
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A tractor with PTO driven generator would likely be a more efficient option.
 
As well as being a lot more efficient.

Car engines are innefficient. At idle or low RPM they are nowhere near their peak torque curve where the best fuel efficiency is. Running it at peak RPM sucks fuel like crazy due to the fact that it produces WAY more hp than what you would need.

A dedicated, purpose built diesel generator would be much better.

Get an older diesel, run it on WVO and the price drops substantially.

CruisnGrrl said:
grabbing an engine out of a wrecked vehicle and hooking it directly up to a generator with an inverter would make more sense than having the whole thing taking up space... though for my needs i think a 6000W generator would fill in the low points and be cheaper than trying to retrofit an engine from a car for it...
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GreyGhost said:
The pickup truck is a cool idea, but likely way more expensive than buying off the grid (assuming you had it running very often). You are probably looking at about 2 liters per hour at idle, obviously a lot more if you revved it up.

My electricity bill is about $2 per day, no alternate solution will ever come close to that price. This is considering operating costs only (maintenance, batteries, fuel, etc). If capital costs are considered, it would be a disaster.
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Mine is under $2 a day for 9 months and $3.50 a day for 3 months(AC in the summer) I don't know how people can complain about that.
 
I see places that loose "their" electric supply,,, I mean, their pole line falls down.. or their transformer blows up, or main service burns up... etc.... and all the utility can do it cut the power to the facility. Those people have to deal with having no power until the repairs are made.... so, they bring in a very efficient, very quiet, diesel generator in a sea container... and when they realize just the cost of fuel alone is substantially more than being on the grid power in Ontario.. they start screaming to have their contractor replace their <broken part> so they can get back on the grid power!
There are interesting ways to use wind, solar, waves, water flow, but that is your lifestyle.. not riding a motorcycle as there is no time left.. you have to be like an ant.. or a farmer.. always gathering today,, for tomorrow..
I have seen a few pilot projects,, roof top solar water heaters heating antifreeze and transfer to domestic water storage .. to be used for showers, or thru forced air furnace coils for space heating.... and the folks I have talked to never saved a penny .... well,, the one fellow was dismantling his set up where he actually broke even the day before... BUT, they all saved KWHr on their electric bill !! so they paid the utility ALOT less money... but more time and effort was put into the job of making their own hot water...
 
Sometimes, its not about the $$$, but about being self-sufficient and reliant on yourself.

go on alternative energy forums and you'll see tons of people who have gone off-grid and never looked back.

Who gives a crap how much KWh costs when you aint getting any power.

meester_jamie said:
I see places that loose "their" electric supply,,, I mean, their pole line falls down.. or their transformer blows up, or main service burns up... etc.... and all the utility can do it cut the power to the facility. Those people have to deal with having no power until the repairs are made.... so, they bring in a very efficient, very quiet, diesel generator in a sea container... and when they realize just the cost of fuel alone is substantially more than being on the grid power in Ontario.. they start screaming to have their contractor replace their <broken part> so they can get back on the grid power!
There are interesting ways to use wind, solar, waves, water flow, but that is your lifestyle.. not riding a motorcycle as there is no time left.. you have to be like an ant.. or a farmer.. always gathering today,, for tomorrow..
I have seen a few pilot projects,, roof top solar water heaters heating antifreeze and transfer to domestic water storage .. to be used for showers, or thru forced air furnace coils for space heating.... and the folks I have talked to never saved a penny .... well,, the one fellow was dismantling his set up where he actually broke even the day before... BUT, they all saved KWHr on their electric bill !! so they paid the utility ALOT less money... but more time and effort was put into the job of making their own hot water...
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