|
|
|
Managing amateur track day risk
- Thread starter Geeser
- Start date
Honestly i think it's mostly due to experience. So i don't know how you'd fix that......
Part of being predicable is how well you're able to hit your markers every lap as well as how you set your entry, mid and exit speeds. The less experienced riders are simply unable to do it as well.. hence why they're in the intermediate group.
Last edited:
But by that logic, the beginner group should be even more dangerous than the intermediate group, which apparently it isn't. Compared to intermediates, beginners are either (a) more cautious, or (b) going so slowly that they can't get into as much trouble.
That seems reasonable to me.
The problem with the Intermediate group is that it has riders that:
a) should really be in red group, but either booked too late and had to drop down to intermediate, or they're cherry-pickers who hate being passed by anyone
b) should really be in green group, but bristles at the idea that they're "beginners"
c) have developed enough skill to want to start pushing themselves, but not enough experience to know what gets them in trouble or how to get out of trouble
Put all these riders out on the track at the same time and it's a recipe for disaster.
Red and green group riders are more consistent in their self-assessment of their skills and what the mandate is for the track at that level.
Last edited:
GRAYZ
Well-known member
Me either, but I'm noticing some track day organizers providing more input and advice to riders between sessions. I was at Fabi yesterday and it was great to hear Matt McBride giving suggestions to some riders, and even offering to go out with them in their group, to improve their safety and continue their learning process. "Seat time" alone isn't the answer, as they say insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
with a heavy dose of judgement thrown in there. And, let's face it, we all get the occasional bout of red mist at the track. It's just how quickly we control it before we **** up our, or someone elses, day that sets riders apart.
Metastable
Well-known member
It is hard to weed these things out of intermediate.... it really is the danger spot typically.
At my last trackday (Jennings - I had a soccer injury, so I have barely ridden this season) there was a really bad crash the one day. Some dude decided to dive up the inside going into a VERY fast corner and when things weren't looking good he panicked, lowsided into the other rider. Anyway.... not going to say much more than everyone lived..... but I was the second rider past the scene and it didn't look good at the time.
Anyway, how do you prevent that? The rider that got taken out had 0 chance.... but there was a bit of a speed differential happening for sure..... she probably should have been in beginner, but on the same token they guy making the pass wasn't thinking either. On the final day I stepped into Advanced and had a great time riding by myself and getting passed by the odd very fast rider that would disappear after a few corners.
Dunno - I was worried I'd be too slow for advanced, but it sure felt WAAAAAY safer.
At my last trackday (Jennings - I had a soccer injury, so I have barely ridden this season) there was a really bad crash the one day. Some dude decided to dive up the inside going into a VERY fast corner and when things weren't looking good he panicked, lowsided into the other rider. Anyway.... not going to say much more than everyone lived..... but I was the second rider past the scene and it didn't look good at the time.
Anyway, how do you prevent that? The rider that got taken out had 0 chance.... but there was a bit of a speed differential happening for sure..... she probably should have been in beginner, but on the same token they guy making the pass wasn't thinking either. On the final day I stepped into Advanced and had a great time riding by myself and getting passed by the odd very fast rider that would disappear after a few corners.
Dunno - I was worried I'd be too slow for advanced, but it sure felt WAAAAAY safer.
mobius
Well-known member
sucks, yet the guy that did the passing should have been thrown out I think, no passing during a turn in intermediate is the rule, unless it works different in the states.
Jia
Well-known member
I think riders meetings are sometimes not effective as they can be, not because of the information, but because not everyone hears and new comers especially are shy and do not want to ask questions. With wind noise, running bikes, dogs barking, generators, etc. Sometimes people don't hear whats going on, and when a new rider doesn't hear, that poses risks. New riders are not necessarily green group, some seasoned road bikers, for reasons previously stated, put themselves in intermediate. There are lots of hot heads macho men, and I think a nice loud speaker phone that reminds people "it's not a race, you win nothing, you can ONLY lose today, so ride smart, ride safe, NO racing, do not weave, do not look behind you, stay on your line and do not move out of the way of riders" and just other really blatant ego crushing to the point speeches will help tame all groups, but especially beginner and intermediate. Perhaps this is one of the issues, perhaps not. I've been to my fair share of trackdays held by just about every major organizer. Regardless of organizer, I find many times riders don't hear whats being said in riders meeting, and you get the odd guy that speaks up and says "I cannot hear", which shows riders do care about rules. You also see guys day dreaming cause they think its a waste of time. This is dangerous. But if you have a speakerphone blaring rules in your face at 8am you're gonna listen, whether you like it or not. A modified quote from Top Gun works perfect. "Trackday rules of riding are written for your safety and for that of your fellow riders. They are not flexible, nor am I. Either obey them or you are history. Is that clear?" And ya that sounds harsh and of course riders meetings should end on a high note like "now go have fun" or something.
There are some universal rules out there that most of us experienced riders know. Such as do not get out of the way and change lines, amongst many others. Perhaps we need a list that will get stickied. Not like the current sticky that just keeps growing in pages with opinions everywhere, and no one likes to read through pages of stuff. But a one post sticky with universal rules that some more experienced riders can carefully come up with.
And for the record, I agree with everything Caboose has had to say about the topic of learning from this tragic incident. If it can help us learn we should utilize it and not be in denial of the danger of the sport. People like the OP have the right to know and inquire about what is track riding like, whether that is with present or past examples.
There are some universal rules out there that most of us experienced riders know. Such as do not get out of the way and change lines, amongst many others. Perhaps we need a list that will get stickied. Not like the current sticky that just keeps growing in pages with opinions everywhere, and no one likes to read through pages of stuff. But a one post sticky with universal rules that some more experienced riders can carefully come up with.
And for the record, I agree with everything Caboose has had to say about the topic of learning from this tragic incident. If it can help us learn we should utilize it and not be in denial of the danger of the sport. People like the OP have the right to know and inquire about what is track riding like, whether that is with present or past examples.
Last edited:
So take this back to riding in the beginner group. Assume many are working on the basics: braking to the right speed before turn in, not starting the turn too early, coming somewhere remotely close to the apex. As the rider at that level, what are the main things I need to do to not create a risk for others, and what are the main things I need to watch for from others in that group?
Last edited:
BrianP already summed it up in post 18 of this thread. And the beauty is it's applicable to green, yellow and red groups, as well:
There is sooo much in this thread.
Starting from the Red group and you being the slow guy on the track:
1. Stay on your line. The faster guys will find their way around.
2.Learn the race line/fast line around the track. Being the slow guy you will follow many into a corner and can follow their line. (it may not be perfect, but it will be close)
3. Be smooth.....smooth is fast and consistent.
4. use break markers and turn in points.
Yellow group:
1. your goal is to be in Red group, so you'll be learning how to do the above in Red group.
2. breaking markers.....how to apply your brakes and body position for the corner and so on.
3. most people tend to turn in too early and too slow. So learn where your turn is and why. In yellow group you have the luxury of the passing rules to keep your panic down.
4. in this group since your going faster you can work on your exit. Avoid a death grip on the bars and keep loose.
5. In this group you are developing a line, or at least learn to develop your comfort level. That's why the passing rules exist.
Green group:
1. As in the other two groups....you are learning the same thing at slower pace. That being said it's hard to develop a line since your entry and exit speeds are slower.
2. an easy environment to work on the rhythm of entering a corner and the same for the exit. Again the passing rules help you.
3. Look where you want to go!! it all starts in this group!!
3. anyone can go fast on the straights....work on your exit because they can't pass until you are clearly on the straight.
all of these points are similar and are just the basics.....what will change is the speed at which it all happens.
don't get be overly concerned that you don't look like Rossi. I have seen guys that look like they're touring and are quite fast!! Your size may seem like an obstacle too....i'm not a small guy and i give the scrawny stick people a run for their money!!!
Last edited:
Most organizers have on track marshals and/or coaches... just not all of them wear the don't-hit-me vest.
When i did some track days in the US, they had control riders that were visible...it went a long way to keep the participants honest!!
AND,,,,you ready for this...if you were passing you had to pass on the outside!! Crazy!!
Last edited:
I too am in the same boat as you Fiery. I have only done Mosport once but ridden Calabogie many times. Always with Pro6. I normally ride Yellow at Calabogie. I went to Mosport for the first time last summer and of course was there just before the Canadian Superbike round and needless to say there were some fast mofo's out there that day. I had booked Yellow and while I held my own I did feel a little overwhelmed trying to learn the track and being out with some really fast guys who likely should have been in red but was probably booked solid or maybe I was just slow which is just as likely. This year I decided to book a couple days at Mosport and start out in Green and get to know the track better. If I get bumped up then so be it, if I stay in green also cool with me. I am heading there Monday(Jul11) so if anyone else will be out I will see you all there.
Metastable
Well-known member
Well they didn't have to throw him out.... both of them got a ride to the ER.
Thing is that turn can sucker you in. It is Turn 2 at Jennings - very high speed left kink where you can get your knee down, but you're HAULING and picking up speed. If you get a good drive out of 1, which is a long left, you can pass someone between 1-2, but if they accelerate a bit harder than you think out of 1, then you might not have the time to make the pass. I'm sure that is what happened.... dude probably tried to brake too late and tucked the front, lowsiding into the other rider.
I'm sure it was just one of those oh crap moments he wished he could have had back.
|
|
|
|
|