my bad, wrong comparison car as the civic is pure ICE. comparable hybrid type vehicle. the Ioniq and the Prius get EPA 53 to 54mpg hwy vs the 40-42 of the volt.
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How do you feel about the decline of petrol vehicles?
- Thread starter 油井緋色
- Start date
my bad, wrong comparison car as the civic is pure ICE. comparable hybrid type vehicle. the Ioniq and the Prius get EPA 53 to 54mpg hwy vs the 40-42 of the volt.
The Volt only uses more than a Prius when it is operating in combustion-engine mode in a specific set of circumstances - Volt's battery drained and at higher highway speed.
The design intent of the Volt has it operating electric-only with the combustion engine as a backup. A normal Prius can only operate electric-only in a very narrow set of circumstances. (low speed and very light load)
If you operate a Volt as per its design intent - as an EV with a combustion-engine backup for the long trips - see PrivatePilot's real world results, which a Prius cannot match.
If you have nowhere to plug in then yes, a Prius may be a better choice ... if you can stomach the Novocaine driving experience of the older models (I can't) or the styling of the current one (I can't).
The design intent of the Volt has it operating electric-only with the combustion engine as a backup. A normal Prius can only operate electric-only in a very narrow set of circumstances. (low speed and very light load)
If you operate a Volt as per its design intent - as an EV with a combustion-engine backup for the long trips - see PrivatePilot's real world results, which a Prius cannot match.
If you have nowhere to plug in then yes, a Prius may be a better choice ... if you can stomach the Novocaine driving experience of the older models (I can't) or the styling of the current one (I can't).
That will all get rectified when the 2019 Insight arrives....
economy of scale
!important]phrase of economy
!important]plural noun: economies of scale
- 1.
a proportionate saving in costs gained by an increased level of production.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale
SunnY, I'll leave you to figure out:
ICE engines run on hydrogen
Hydrogen is a transportable and clean fuel which is why those playing the long game are developing a second stream. ( there is another stream which is using hydrogen and captured CO2 to produce hydrocarbon fuels )
You missed the biggest issue
Solid state storage
Work in progress......getting closer
it ain't rocket science ,,...
tho perhaps it is ...
It's the solid state storage that is the holy grail ....but that won't stop the ongoing development for larger vehicles and in the case of Honda and Toyota....smaller vehicles too.
ICE engines run on hydrogen
Hydrogen can be produced locally ...does not need a "distribution network" and production is an adjunct to the grid anyways.
It already can be ...there is so much additional electricity that cannot be stored from hydro, nuclear and renewables.
Hydrogen is a transportable and clean fuel which is why those playing the long game are developing a second stream. ( there is another stream which is using hydrogen and captured CO2 to produce hydrocarbon fuels )
You missed the biggest issue
Solid state storage
Work in progress......getting closer
https://www.gkn.com/en/our-technology/2016/hydrogen-storage/
it ain't rocket science ,,...
tho perhaps it is ...
It's the solid state storage that is the holy grail ....but that won't stop the ongoing development for larger vehicles and in the case of Honda and Toyota....smaller vehicles too.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Do you understand the Economy of Scale? I doesn't magically happen, and it's only contributes once you solve for cost effective technology AND demand.
You didn't solve cost - you're still at the start gate. First solve fundamental build cost AND demand, then maybe you can find meaningful economy of scale.
I kind of remember all the arguments about electric vehicles a way back when.
If we dismiss things because it’s not wide spread today, we wouldn’t have horseless carriages today.
I’m going to enjoy my petro machines while I can but, I’m looking forward to the future as well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If we dismiss things because it’s not wide spread today, we wouldn’t have horseless carriages today.
I’m going to enjoy my petro machines while I can but, I’m looking forward to the future as well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mad Mike
Well-known member
True, but this is a different argument with it's own issues. H2 is economically feasible in fuel cells as they are 3x the efficiency of ICE. ICE hydrogen engines are about the same efficiency as gas, however the cost of .25kg of H2 (which is equal to 1l of gasoline) is more than twice the price of gasoline without taxes. It takes 12.5kWh of electricity to make .25kg of H2, you have to still pay for operating the plant, compressing the gas, storing, pumping, profit and maybe taxes.
True again, but not really. You could say the same about refining gasoline -- it can be done a gallon at a time using small setups, but it's not practical on a small scale. The small plant that Shell is building (mentioned earlier) cost $30million dollars and produces enough hydrogen to fill 16 cars a day. The financing cost alone would add $120 to each 10kg fillup!
This is true, and there is lots of potential here. Using waste wind, hydro, and nuclear renewables can reduce the energy cost component for producing hydrogen to the equivalent of $1.70/l of gas. Still not competitive, but maybe close enough.
exactly and very early in the game. Let the manufacturers and gov foot the bills for development...I'd be happy to see a flat monthly cost model including fuel, maintenance and capital cost.
Vehicle by subscription ....I suspect we are moving that way. Vehicle on demand could upset the entire meme and reduce vehicle count by some 80%.
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That could also reduce the required infrastructure if combined with autonomous driving. The autonomous vehicle starts near the filling station and works it's way out for ~half a tank, then back towards the station for ~half a tank. Stations could be every 50 km instead of every 5 blocks.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
The equivalent of $1.70/l of gas would require no tax AND there would likely need to be some other incentives if gas/diesel are substantially cheaper. Fortunately a good chunk of Ontario's renewable energy is near urban centers, makes distribution easier.
Development isn't a big issue, industry already make massive amounts of H2, and H2 ICE engines are re-configurations of existing ICE motors. The issue is getting govt and business interested in pushing it forward.
I think there may be too much work, doubt, money and uncertainty as to whether it's even necessary. ICE and EV technology are still evolving, will another competitive option help or hurt?
Development isn't a big issue, industry already make massive amounts of H2, and H2 ICE engines are re-configurations of existing ICE motors. The issue is getting govt and business interested in pushing it forward.
I think there may be too much work, doubt, money and uncertainty as to whether it's even necessary. ICE and EV technology are still evolving, will another competitive option help or hurt?
Yep ....so much space in cities is used by parked vehicles and that would be reduced dramatically.
The interesting thing will be bicyclists and perhaps motorcyclists "gaming" the autonomous cars safety buffers.
It's really just a form of filtering which already goes on in places like Barcelona where everyone on two wheels ends up at the front of the line at every stop light.
The interesting thing will be bicyclists and perhaps motorcyclists "gaming" the autonomous cars safety buffers.
It's really just a form of filtering which already goes on in places like Barcelona where everyone on two wheels ends up at the front of the line at every stop light.
In related news ...
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyota/mirai/2016/2016-toyota-mirai-review-long-term-verdict/
One-word summary? Meh.
Slightly longer summary? Even without considering the dearth of filling stations, it's an expensive vehicle that is expensive to feed (after the initial free-fuel period runs out), isn't that nice to drive (although this is a Toyota thing rather than a fuel-cell thing), and doesn't live up to its claims.
A Bolt has a longer range and you can fill it up anywhere you can get electricity, including in your own garage ...
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyota/mirai/2016/2016-toyota-mirai-review-long-term-verdict/
One-word summary? Meh.
Slightly longer summary? Even without considering the dearth of filling stations, it's an expensive vehicle that is expensive to feed (after the initial free-fuel period runs out), isn't that nice to drive (although this is a Toyota thing rather than a fuel-cell thing), and doesn't live up to its claims.
A Bolt has a longer range and you can fill it up anywhere you can get electricity, including in your own garage ...
toyota, honda and a few others along with Shell are making a $10.7 Billion, thats Billion with a B on a Hydrogen future.
Thats a lot of coin to toss around and not expect a ROI
From what Im reading, no single technology will "win", but you can bet hydrogen will be among the electrics in the race....
http://royaldutchshellgroup.com/201...mong-giants-betting-10-7-billion-on-hydrogen/
the next 5 years in auto industry will be exciting to watch.
Have they tested the Clarity yet? every review Ive seen praises it for its Accord like handing and ride. thats pretty good. Also, and can't wait to check one out at the auto show, the interior has Acura levels of luxury.
Thats a lot of coin to toss around and not expect a ROI
From what Im reading, no single technology will "win", but you can bet hydrogen will be among the electrics in the race....
http://royaldutchshellgroup.com/201...mong-giants-betting-10-7-billion-on-hydrogen/
the next 5 years in auto industry will be exciting to watch.
Have they tested the Clarity yet? every review Ive seen praises it for its Accord like handing and ride. thats pretty good. Also, and can't wait to check one out at the auto show, the interior has Acura levels of luxury.
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You see there's the below, which in my view is really no different for hydrogen (not identical but rather the same problem) at the end of the day. Especially, until someone figures out electrolysis from renewable sources. And when they do, it will still cost arm and a leg per kg, because someone will have to pay that someone who went to dear pains of investment making such hydrogen .... it's just vicious circle. To each his own .... I will always prefer the plug and ideally PV on the roof to support it.
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Unfortunately, Toyota successfully lobbied Quebec government and will be able to suck some money out of them
http://driving.ca/toyota/mirai/auto-news/news/toyota-bringing-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-to-quebec
http://driving.ca/toyota/mirai/auto-news/news/toyota-bringing-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-to-quebec
2 Key take aways from that article:
-While most electric vehicle cars have limited range which makes them most suitable for urban travel, the Mirai can travel 500 kilometres on a single tank that is quickly filled and can operate in the coldest conditions. By contrast, most EV recharging is done at home overnight, and even the fastest charges take 30 minutes or more.
-"like all advanced technology projects, is going to take its time but there’s enormous promise for it because it’s not just about cars,"
Mad Mike
Well-known member
2 more key take aways from that article:
Not sure I buy the range argument. The average urban driver does less than 40km/day whick is well withing the range of most EVs. If she drives a PEHV like a Volt, she can do 95% of her driving without turning on the gas, refuel (E or gas) anywhere, and could visit friends in Ottawa or Montreal because she has unlimited range for the few times a year she needs it. The Mirai driver must stay within 200km Montreal or Quebec city, so she won't be visiting friends in Ottawa or Toronto.
It may well be Honda or Toyota that builds out but your objections on no filling station are very minor as it's way too early especially for a country like Canada.
These vehicles are targetted at cities where pollution is rampant and they want a true zero emission vehicle in the long term.
The tech is moving forward and it's always good to have a second tech in play. The lithium bottleneck could be a real problem for EV growth.
2 years from starting to mine to useful product.....that's a boa constrictor squeezing rapid deployment.
These vehicles are targetted at cities where pollution is rampant and they want a true zero emission vehicle in the long term.
The tech is moving forward and it's always good to have a second tech in play. The lithium bottleneck could be a real problem for EV growth.
2 years from starting to mine to useful product.....that's a boa constrictor squeezing rapid deployment.
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