What's your view on trail braking? | Page 5 | GTAMotorcycle.com

What's your view on trail braking?

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caboose56 said:
1:07s on Pro Track and I’ve never used the rear brake ever on track. Not once.

I cover the rear brake for cool down lap whoolies!

Some of these comments are amazing.
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Many years ago, when I was transitioning from dirt back to road racing i thought it would be a good idea to take a refresher course.
Talked to Michel Mercier and got a coach from FAST school.
The day was basically the two of us riding around and when ever I touched the rear brake, he hit me with a stick.
I didn't use the rear brake for years.
Then I started riding two strokesagain. Found the rear brake right quick.
(For those that have never ridden a two stroke; they have NO engine braking. You can go into a corner and bang it down 5 gears, the thing will rev to the sky and won't slow down the rear wheel till it seizes the motor).
I'll tell you there is are advantages to using your rear brake.
 
I'm not saying you're wrong - IIRC (which I possibly don't) when I did FAST they were very discouraging of using the rear brake on day 1... but on day 2 it was re-introduced. Maybe?
 
For the original poster, I'd say you should wait until you have your throttle control issues sorted out, and then take a reputable course.
 
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This turned out to be quite an entertaining discussion!

I'm an old fart so track riding is in the rear view mirror. I still enjoy a good romp, so for me it's rural roads a few hrs from home. On my big bike I got lazy and hammered the brakes hard into the turn, coasted to the apex then twisted out 150hp+ and 100+ lbs of torque at the apex and I was up front. Then I started riding a 250cc bike with a bunch of STs and a few SS riders. Found trail braking let me hold my speed thru the corners, and was able to keep up till late in the exit with good riders, and well past with others.

I find it improves my cornering alot when riding my lower powered steeds. Less so on the big dogs.

I ride with a lot of groups, I never see trail braking. Never. Give it a shot, learn a new skill and come back to talk at the end of the riding season.
 
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bitzz said:
Then I started riding two strokesagain. Found the rear brake right quick.
(For those that have never ridden a two stroke; they have NO engine braking. You can go into a corner and bang it down 5 gears, the thing will rev to the sky and won't slow down the rear wheel till it seizes the motor).
I'll tell you there is are advantages to using your rear brake.
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Valid point. I’ve never ridden anything but a Superbike on a race track so I’ve always had a decent amount of engine braking.
 
TwistedKestrel said:
I'm not saying you're wrong - IIRC (which I possibly don't) when I did FAST they were very discouraging of using the rear brake on day 1... but on day 2 it was re-introduced. Maybe?
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Same for racer5. A lot of the guys Ive tracked with, which range from green to red, don't use it the rear. I know Guy Martin does (Isles of Man TT)...but I'm nowhere near his level so won't pretend to understand why or how.
 
Trail braking is effective on the track, and perhaps in West Virginia, Virginia, North Carolina, or other mountain states where they have many curvy wonderful roads. But here in Ontario where will you use it. On the 401 on and off ramps! Forks of the credit! LOL.
 
The technique underlying trail-braking - boiled down to "simultaneous partial brake application while cornering" - can be used any time you get a mid-corner surprise, street or track doesn't matter.
 
Blacque Jacque Shellacque said:
Trail braking is effective on the track, and perhaps in West Virginia, Virginia, North Carolina, or other mountain states where they have many curvy wonderful roads. But here in Ontario where will you use it. On the 401 on and off ramps! Forks of the credit! LOL.
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see, this is my concern too, but for a different reason
I'm sure the GTAM collective will decide to correct me though

I get the theory of trail braking, and on a closed course it is logical
the physics don't lie

but on North/Eastern roads where winter wreaks havoc on asphalt
and there is often debris on the pavement all year round
I'm just not comfortable with front braking around blind curves

I prefer the method MM described of aggressive braking where you can see
counter steer like a MF and throttle out once you can see

of course the risk is you underestimate the radius and end up effed
but I'll take those odds over trail braking into a gravel patch in a corner
 
Interesting read ...don't have much to offer beyond seems Honda has done rather well with C-ABS which surely has some bearing on the discussion.
I really enjoyed the C-ABS on the CBF1000 tho I tend to use both brakes together - the rear primarily for stability but then I don't push it anymore...it's just habit to use both appropriately.
 
I didn't read the whole thread and maybe this is covered but Ontario is not southern Ohio or West Virginia. I'm curious ........given the virtual lack of super curvy roads here just what types of speeds are people running on a 507 or Elephant Road or Glamorgan type of road that would necessitate trail braking vs. just aggressive counter steering?

I certainly can appreciate that if you are aggressively trail braking around a blind corner, and trail braking is absolutely necessary to successfully navigate the corner, and you encounter a road covered with gravel you are probably in serious trouble.

I'm suggesting that if you use trail braking aggressively to maximise corner speeds you're probably way way over the speed limit and you've left yourself little margin if something goes wrong.
 
Brian P said:
The technique underlying trail-braking - boiled down to "simultaneous partial brake application while cornering" - can be used any time you get a mid-corner surprise, street or track doesn't matter.
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Using the brake mid corner cuz you screwed up is NOT trail braking.
 
JavaFan said:
...

I prefer the method MM described of aggressive braking where you can see
counter steer like a MF and throttle out once you can see
....
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ReSTored said:
... type of road that would necessitate trail braking vs. just aggressive counter steering?
....
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Tell us about how one would consciously counter steer into a corner?
Just in case the subject comes up again: The bike counter steers, you react to what the bike does.

I provided a link to Tony Foale's website earlier, he did a lot of research on the subject.

I keep saying that the rear wheel steers the bike, and no one has said anything about that.
Counter steering is a result of the rear wheel steering the bike, it is a function of the geometry of the bike.
 
bitzz said:
Tell us about how one would consciously counter steer into a corner?
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You're kidding, right? A rider initiates a turn into a corner by pushing on the left grip to turn left and perhaps some riders do this subconsciously. During the corner you can keep your existing line by continuing to apply the same pressure or you can tighten (or loosen) up your line by pushing harder (or lighter) and this, obviously, requires conscious thought and action.

In the context of the thread I'm saying that on most Ontario roads simply using counter steering is more than adequate to navigate roads at a reasonably sane speed. I'm not saying that trail braking is not effective.
 
Trail braking <- according to wikipedia :giggle: that is where you come in at WOT and reserve all the brake you can until the very last moment possible and then power on at the apex to do a nice power wheelie out of the corner? Yep, you can't do that legally on Ontario public roads, the cops are going to chase you down and beat up on you for stunt riding for sure.


I know of some nice Ontario county roads where you can get completely airborne without exceeding the posted speed limit yhmv.
 
bitzz said:
Tell us about how one would consciously counter steer into a corner?
Just in case the subject comes up again: The bike counter steers, you react to what the bike does.

I provided a link to Tony Foale's website earlier, he did a lot of research on the subject.

I keep saying that the rear wheel steers the bike, and no one has said anything about that.
Counter steering is a result of the rear wheel steering the bike, it is a function of the geometry of the bike.
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Hello,

Sorry for the long post that is technically off topic from rail braking ...

@bitzz I have been read this complete thread and left well enough alone but felt compelled to reply to this note. I too know of Tony's work, I have a start of a Foale/Parker FFE frame in my garage and first e-mailed with Tony probably over 15 maybe 20 years ago (not that that makes me an expert, I just happen to have e-mailed with the man)

I agree that a rear tire has trail and many don't consider the effects of the rear wheel in the function of the front of the bike. I also agree that you can provide some forward load from a rear brake. But to say that counter steering is a result of the rear wheel steering the bike I'm not sure where that can come from.

So on the rear steers the bike: (page 3-3 of Tony's latest version of book - had it marked) I know he is speaking of slip angle in this section and the restorative nature of the trail but "One may be forgiven for thinking that because the positive trail of the rear wheel is much greater than that of the front, the rear would be the more important in this respect. The reverse is the case...." If the rear has less interaction than the front in restorative nature of trail I can't see how it can have a larger effect on steering than the front.

As for counter steering, (chapter 4) its the centripetal tire forces that initiate counter steering to work "A steering action to the right will cause the machine to start turning to the right and centripetal tire forces will cause a lean to the left. " he continues "The forces will also act on the rear wheel which, because it is rigidly attached to the bulk of the machine, will tend to make the machine yaw into the curve. However, this reinforcing effect is secondary to that of the front wheel"

The front wheel centripetal forces related to counter steering are what steer a bike with gyroscopic support of the lean in allowing for the corner to continue. I'm not sure if its a difference in terminology you are using but 'rear wheel steering the bike' seem to imply that the rear initiates and controls the steering/turning of the bike. And as far as my reading and research has found that's not the case. I know I can consciously counter steer for a corner, in Tony's book there is a great comment and picture of Chris Walker on 4-32. And counter steering is easy to test, run up to 50kph and give a strong push to the right bar (if you can with the left hand off as then you know you are not fighting yourself though be prepared to handle the results), report back if your bike doesn't initiate a lean (turn) to the right. In fact adding conscious counter steering to my track riding is something I need to work on as I know I do it but not as much as a conscious action that I would like it to be.

Maybe worthy of an off line conversation or separate thread since this is not about trail braking (however people want to define trail braking)

For those that do want to get geeky on how a motorcycle works I do recommend Tony's book. John Bradley's 3 book series on design, construction and setting up a racing motorcycle are also good.

Jeff
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