Tue 12th Hwy 403 stunters - you're on CTV news | Page 3 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Tue 12th Hwy 403 stunters - you're on CTV news

Face

Well-known member
Hedo, hope your recovery is going well. Btw, when you were lobbying for ATVs, it would have been great if you could have also got permission for green plated dirt bikes to use public roads to link trails. Oh well, small steps.

I also agree, those guys are tools! Wrong place, but as others have said, they clearly are interested in having an audience and their 15 minutes.

Just to clarify, engineers do not set road speeds. They are set by Provincial Policy, which if I recall, was last influenced by the oil crisis back in the 70s or 80s. When the new 407 extension and 412 recently opened, I am pretty certain that there were no committees to determine appropriate speed. It was set at 100 because that was policy. Having both ridden and driven those highways and looking at the site lines, ramp radii, lane widths, acceleration and slow down area, etc., I am comfortable saying that the engineered design speed is well above 100. It would have been much better if engineers did set the limit, or at least set discreet monitors to measure and determine the 85th percentile, then use it as the limit. I would bet it would be around 125 or 130.

The process you are referring too is about altering a speed (almost never a request to raise it), which is usually initiated by political complaints. And I would say that most of the parties you referenced at the table (including the police) have a vested interest in seeing the speed lowered. So its no surprise that we are regularly coming back to a road we know only to see the speed lowered.

You also cannot say that police don't lobby. Police are a key part of the "speed kills" public campaign to put the focus on speed. Stats also collected from police reports very often say "speed was a factor". That doesn't refer to how much the speed was over the limit, or rate the relative impact speed may have contributed to the situation. But by simply recording every time speed could have had an influence, can severely skew the results. Anyone who has ever worked with stats knows that how the question is asked determines the results you get. Others have mentioned how police budgets benefit, but the police also benefit by improving their own charge and conviction rates. To put it bluntly, speeding is much easier to enforce and convict in much greater numbers than distracted driving, unsafe lane changes, unsafe left turns, real stunting (as opposed to the HTA172 definition) etc., which all have a far more direct impact to public safety.

I believe I posted this elsewhere in a similar discussion, but in 2002 I witnessed the police armed occupation if the entire Toronto Council Chambers and the 2nd floor gallery around the rotunda. This was an overt act clearly meant to intimidate Council into approving an increase in the police budget while the budgets of all other departments and ABCs (agencies, boards & commissions) of the City were capped at the previous year's rate without indexing. And today Toronto Police have 80% of uniformed officers (and I have to assume 100% of detectives and management) on the sunshine list. Police not only lobby, they are very effective at it.

Police also have some level of control over how they enforce the laws and by-laws passed by politicians. Its interesting how those marijuana outlets only got raided when it became politically desirable to do so. Up until then, it wasn't high on the police radar. Same with road hockey, until the recently by-law change. But it is a shame that we have to rely on luck of the draw and the mood of the officer at the particular time to determine the extent to which ill considered laws get enforced.
 

油井緋色

Well-known member
Site Supporter
The engineers do suggest a max speed though.

They're just never listened to because political illusions of safety are more important than efficiency.
 

-D-

Banned
Too many walls of texts.

The police can leave the stunters alone when they are in the industrial areas.
They are out of the way, they get hurt, their problem.
Chasing them onto the highways is not safe for the rest of us because guess what, they still stuntin but now on the roads with us.
just sayin'
 

PLau

Well-known member
Too many walls of texts.

The police can leave the stunters alone when they are in the industrial areas.
They are out of the way, they get hurt, their problem.
Chasing them onto the highways is not safe for the rest of us because guess what, they still stuntin but now on the roads with us.
just sayin'
Street stunters have the choice of stunting on the highways, back roads, or parking lots.

Cops aren't "Chasing them onto highways", it's the stunter's choice to do so in order to get attention. If cops are indeed giving stunters crap for stunting in industrial areas, as well as private lots, and highways, why would the rider then choose the option that grabs the most attention from people (including cops)?

They have the choice to choose the time and place, which also offers safer and secluded environments with less of a chance for cops (and people) to be around, but they make the choice to do it on populated highways. What makes you think the stunters will keep it on the back streets and back lots if cops left them alone there?
 

ZX600

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Insurance rates are going to go up as much as they legally can bring them up without causing some kind of civil revolt regardless or stunters, let's cut the crap.
Our insurance rates.
 

PrivatePilot

Ironus Butticus
Site Supporter
Insurance rates are going to go up as much as they legally can bring them up without causing some kind of civil revolt regardless or stunters, let's cut the crap.
Insurance is based on risk (actual or perceived) as well as claims. There's no way anyone in their right mind is going to watch that video and not perceive risk, therefore it's naive to think that that sort of behavior doesn't effect the overall bigger picture when the underwriters look at the motorcycle market as a whole, especially when the greater majority of them are likely not motorcyclists themselves and don't understand that this sort of behaviour isn't indicative of the greater majority of us.

Not all truck drivers (like myself) are clueless idiots as well who drive like children, but one idiot in Toronto rolls over and spills salad dressing and mayonnaise all over the highway and then go read the comments about the situation on social media and you'll quickly discover we're all painted with the same broad brush and yes, insurance rates are out of line in the commercial market as well thanks to this sort of isolated idiocy.
 

Neil_V

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Insurance is based on risk (actual or perceived) as well as claims. There's no way anyone in their right mind is going to watch that video and not perceive risk, therefore it's naive to think that that sort of behavior doesn't effect the overall bigger picture when the underwriters look at the motorcycle market as a whole, especially when the greater majority of them are likely not motorcyclists themselves and don't understand that this sort of behaviour isn't indicative of the greater majority of us.

Not all truck drivers (like myself) are clueless idiots as well who drive like children, but one idiot in Toronto rolls over and spills salad dressing and mayonnaise all over the highway and then go read the comments about the situation on social media and you'll quickly discover we're all painted with the same broad brush and yes, insurance rates are out of line in the commercial market as well thanks to this sort of isolated idiocy.
There are no more idiots today than in the past.. It's bs, and rates from every other major market in Canada prove as much.
 

PrivatePilot

Ironus Butticus
Site Supporter
There are no more idiots today than in the past
As someone who's been in the trucking industry for 20+ years, I can safely disagree on that, as would anyone else who's been in it as long as I have and can see the bigger picture. It used to be 90% professionals out there who were proud of their jobs and had the respect of the public. Now it's 50% cowboys, yahoos and ignorant idiots, and the public is scared of us.
 

Neil_V

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Cool. So we can blame truckers for increased motorcycle insurance rates?


... of course not; I'll stick to blaming corrupt policy makers
 

-D-

Banned
Street stunters have the choice of stunting on the highways, back roads, or parking lots.

Cops aren't "Chasing them onto highways", it's the stunter's choice to do so in order to get attention. If cops are indeed giving stunters crap for stunting in industrial areas, as well as private lots, and highways, why would the rider then choose the option that grabs the most attention from people (including cops)?

They have the choice to choose the time and place, which also offers safer and secluded environments with less of a chance for cops (and people) to be around, but they make the choice to do it on populated highways. What makes you think the stunters will keep it on the back streets and back lots if cops left them alone there?
They can get their bikes impounded by the cops for being in the private parking lots.
You ride a bike, get to know the basic laws that are in full effect.

They can charge you with stunting if they wanted to for you waving to another rider...do you know why?
 

-D-

Banned
Our insurance rates.

with all due respect, stop repeating this
it's BS

we are cash cows foe the ins companies

it's the same scam Hydro/Enbridge pulled

it was a warm winter, consumption was low, oh we did not make enough money so we will up the rates


insurance= if let's say half the bikers stopped riding...they will say rates stay the same or increased due to low volume of riders
 

BigEvilDoer

Well-known member
There are no more idiots today than in the past.. It's bs, and rates from every other major market in Canada prove as much.
I disagree. Math simply doesn't support your deduction.
If there are 10% idiots in the population...
100,000 people x 10% = 10,000 idiots
1,000,000 people x 10% = 100,000 idiots.

Percentages stay the same, but there are significantly more idiots.
 

Wingboy

Well-known member
Moderator
Site Supporter
There are no more idiots today than in the past.. It's bs, and rates from every other major market in Canada prove as much.
There are more people with instant media out there to promote the madness of idiots.
 

Neil_V

Well-known member
Site Supporter
There are more people with instant media out there to promote the madness of idiots.
Precisely ... In person, I see no more morons pullin wheelies through downtown then I did when I was a senior in high school, wishing I could own a bike that cool. Now that I do ironically, I wonder why. I am getting old lol
 

Neil_V

Well-known member
Site Supporter
I disagree. Math simply doesn't support your deduction.
If there are 10% idiots in the population...
100,000 people x 10% = 10,000 idiots
1,000,000 people x 10% = 100,000 idiots.

Percentages stay the same, but there are significantly more idiots.
Which also means 900,000 people being reasonable, thus keeping the likely hood of encountering a moron more or less unchanged
 

PLau

Well-known member
They can get their bikes impounded by the cops for being in the private parking lots.
You ride a bike, get to know the basic laws that are in full effect.

They can charge you with stunting if they wanted to for you waving to another rider...do you know why?
I'm not talking about what the law is, it's both illegal if the property owner doesn't permit it. I'm talking about the choice made to stunt the highway vs in a parking lot.

When a stunter is stunting on a highway vs a parking lot, what are the chances of coming across a cop? Likely higher on a highway than a random parking lot in the middle of nowhere.

When stunting on a highway vs a parking lot, which is more likely to put other drivers and the general public at risk if a mistake were made? Would you trust your local timmies rider to not loop the bike while practicing sick wheelies down the 401?

Please show me some proof that anyone has ever been charged for stunting for waving. Using an "example" of a theoretical charge of simply waving doesn't prove anything.

My point is, it's the rider's choice to stunt on the highway for the attention rather than "because they're being chased out of the back lots".
 
Last edited:

griff2

Banned
My point is, it's the rider's choice to stunt on the highway for the attention rather than "because they're being chased out of the back lots".
According to one witness, the latest 400 series motorcycle fatality may have had something do do with stunting. If so, congrats, now they have the attention they seek.

They have the attention of the friends and family of the injured and dead. They have the attention of the thousands that were trapped on the highway in the immediate aftermath, and the hundreds of thousands of recreational, business, and cartage drivers who faced traffic detour gridlock for the 12 hours the highway was closed while police investigated and picked up the body, the injured, and motorcycle parts over a 1 km stretch of the highway.

Great show. Right.

Read the following on https://www.facebook.com/AM980London/
Mike Galbraith I was there and the bikers were at fault pulling wheelies in the middle of the Hwy

Sometimes you have to wonder whether such Facebook comments are BS or not, but photos taken at the scene do show that Facebook commenter at the scene of the crash. Look at the 4th photo at this link, guy wearing a blue shirt at bottom right of the photo is the same person who said they were doing wheelies. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CoCVfkAWAAAgCyX.jpg http://www.am980.ca/2016/07/23/deadly-401-collision-leaves-1-man-dead-2-injured/




If what he said is true, it brings back to mind what Halton Police advised riders not too many days ago... "It’s not the other vehicle you need to worry about.” http://www.theifp.ca/news-story/6768967-project-ride-alive-focuses-on-motorcycle-safety-in-milton-halton-hills/

 
Last edited:

conundrum

Well-known member
As I've said before here and elsewhere, there seems to be 2 main types of riders out there...those that enjoy the connection with vehicle, rider, and road, and those who ride to get a rush from danger. The former group (the one I identify with) seems to try to mitigate what risk they can with gear, not pushing beyond 70-80% on the streets, etc...whereas the other seems to get off on adding to the danger, like they are chasing a bigger and bigger high each time.

I've rode with the latter before, and commented after about how they were pushing it hard in blind corners, and how could they see...their response was pretty much "I couldn't and that's the rush". All I could do is shake my head and hope I don't have to attend a funeral in future.

Always saddens me when I see something like the recent one on the 401, and if it does turn out to be rider error, then that means that death was preventable BY the rider. We have to watch out for enough things when on our roads these days, but I guess some people still think they are invincible.
 

kiwi

Well-known member
According to one witness, the latest 400 series motorcycle fatality may have had something do do with stunting. If so, congrats, now they have the attention they seek.

They have the attention of the friends and family of the injured and dead. They have the attention of the thousands that were trapped on the highway in the immediate aftermath, and the hundreds of thousands of recreational, business, and cartage drivers who faced traffic detour gridlock for the 12 hours the highway was closed while police investigated and picked up the body, the injured, and motorcycle parts over a 1 km stretch of the highway.

Great show. Right.
I heard this on the news, and I had suspicions that it was probably stunting in the wee hours of the morning. Didn't hear much other than the roadway was closed for hours.

Interesting Reading the linked article "Police said they are trying to locate the third rider with injuries, who left the scene just before officers arrived."
 

Top Bottom