Strategy for fighting 3 tickets?

Relax

Relax

Well-known member
It's been a long time since I had to deal with traffic tickets, but my daughter just got 3 of them at once in her car. Technically off topic, but thought this would be of interest to riders regardless. She was stopped behind a bus in the right lane, waiting for it to move so she could turn right at the intersection. I'm waiting to find out if she remembers if the bus had any signals on, but I assume if it had hazards on she would have mentioned it. She said it was just sitting there for the longest time, so she made a lane change to the middle lane, passed the bus, then turned right at the intersection in front of the bus. A cop gave her tickets for no turn signal when changing to the middle lane, using the middle lane to turn right in front of the bus, and not having her address up to date (drivers license address did not match insurance address because she moved). Waiting for picture of the actual tickets and charges.

Is it possible to fight each of these tickets independently, or do they all have to be fought together? From past experience, when trying to set a court date for one ticket, they knew about the other two and put them on the same docket. I was thinking of doing an early resolution on the address (now that she's changed it), as well as the turning right in front of the bus because it appeared to be broken down, then fight the no turn signal in court and hope the cop doesn't show up. My daughter did some digging on the turn signal ticket, and says you could argue that there was not many cars around and road conditions and weather was good - so maybe we should take them all to early resolution?
 
I find early resolution a waste of time when "fighting" tickets. They may clean up fixit tickets there but you can do that in court too. I doubt they will separate tickets and let you take some to early resolution and some to trial. When you attend early resolution, I doubt they will give an inch as they can see the other tickets are going to trial and they want leverage for a plea. Ime, arguing why your ticket is not justified at early resolution is a waste of breath. They want fast, easy convictions. Other than fix-it tickets, they aren't interested in dropping charges there even if you have solid justification. They know their odds of a conviction are good in court. Sadly, they want convictions, not truth or justice.

I would take all three to trial. When she talks to prosecutor before trial, try to get them to agree to drop the fix it ticket. Argue the other two in front of the JP. The turn signal one may be hard as the cop (presumably) saw her pull out and will argue that at least they were affected. For the bus being broken, get her to take detailed notes asap. What vehicles were around (relative locations, speed and description if possible)? Maybe she waited through entire song X by Y on the radio and the bus still hadn't moved (or similar). Quantifying how long you waited can help your case, even more so if it has some support and isn't just how long you felt you waited. For bonus points, contact transit authority and see if bus really was stopped for an extended time there. I'm not sure if they will give it to you, but that would be a deathblow in court for the prosecution.

I assume your daughter didn't have dashcam. I would ask for cruiser dash cam in discovery but highly suspect they will do everything possible to avoid giving that to you.

If you are going to trial to represent her, you need a signed and dated note from her to allow you to represent her and give you authority to plead for her. I've done that for my wife before. I assume the same works for a child.

Good luck. Let us know when you have the actual HTA offences and maybe we can help more with defense for specific sections.
 
Relax said:
Fail to notify change of address - license HTA - O. Regulation 340/94 Sect 33 (1)
Fail to signal - lane change HTA Sect 142 (1)
Use center lane improperly HTA Sect 154 (1) (b)
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33. (1) The holder of a driver’s licence who changes his or her address shall, within six days after the change, send by registered mail or have filed with the Ministry a notice in writing, or electronically in a format designated by the Ministry, of the change giving the former address, the present address and the number of his or her driver’s licence. O. Reg. 340/94, s. 33 (1).

Hopefully just a fixit ticket. Not a great way to fight it other than saying mea culpa and getting it done imo.

142 (1) The driver or operator of a vehicle upon a highway before turning to the left or right at any intersection or into a private road or driveway or from one lane for traffic to another lane for traffic or to leave the roadway shall first see that the movement can be made in safety, and if the operation of any other vehicle may be affected by the movement shall give a signal plainly visible to the driver or operator of the other vehicle of the intention to make the movement. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 142 (1).

Vehicle affected is the key here. Cop should have to identify at least one specific vehicle that was affected (which may be them). A generic "someone could have been affected" should not be sufficient.

154(1)b) in the case of a highway that is divided into three lanes, a vehicle shall not be driven in the centre lane except when overtaking and passing another vehicle where the roadway is clearly visible and the centre lane is clear of traffic within a reasonable safe distance, or in preparation for a left turn, or where the centre lane is at the time designated for the use of traffic moving in the direction in which the vehicle is proceeding and official signs are erected to indicate the designation;

It seems to be the wrong charge. She was passing a vehicle and therefore seems to comply with this section. It looks like 141(2) should have been the charge. She needs to beat 154(1)(b) and I think she can easily.

(2) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the right into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the right-hand lane or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway and he or she shall make the right turn by entering the right-hand lane of the intersecting highway where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway being entered. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (2).
 
Unless I have the wrong section, 154(1)(b) is completely irrelevant, as it refers to the middle lane as in the lane diving two single lanes in each direction?

154 (1) Where a highway has been divided into clearly marked lanes for traffic,

(a) a vehicle shall not be driven from one lane to another lane or to the shoulder or from the shoulder to a lane unless the driver first ascertains that it can be done safely;

(b) in the case of a highway that is divided into three lanes, a vehicle shall not be driven in the centre lane except when overtaking and passing another vehicle where the roadway is clearly visible and the centre lane is clear of traffic within a reasonable safe distance, or in preparation for a left turn, or where the centre lane is at the time designated for the use of traffic moving in the direction in which the vehicle is proceeding and official signs are erected to indicate the designation;

(c) any lane may be designated for slowly moving traffic, traffic moving in a particular direction or classes or types of vehicles and, despite section 141, where a lane is so designated and official signs indicating the designation are erected, every driver shall obey the instructions on the official signs. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 154 (1); 2015, c. 14, s. 45.
 
GreyGhost said:
33. (1) The holder of a driver’s licence who changes his or her address shall, within six days after the change, send by registered mail or have filed with the Ministry a notice in writing, or electronically in a format designated by the Ministry, of the change giving the former address, the present address and the number of his or her driver’s licence. O. Reg. 340/94, s. 33 (1).

Hopefully just a fixit ticket. Not a great way to fight it other than saying mea culpa and getting it done imo.

142 (1) The driver or operator of a vehicle upon a highway before turning to the left or right at any intersection or into a private road or driveway or from one lane for traffic to another lane for traffic or to leave the roadway shall first see that the movement can be made in safety, and if the operation of any other vehicle may be affected by the movement shall give a signal plainly visible to the driver or operator of the other vehicle of the intention to make the movement. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 142 (1).

Vehicle affected is the key here. Cop should have to identify at least one specific vehicle that was affected (which may be them). A generic "someone could have been affected" should not be sufficient.

154(1)b) in the case of a highway that is divided into three lanes, a vehicle shall not be driven in the centre lane except when overtaking and passing another vehicle where the roadway is clearly visible and the centre lane is clear of traffic within a reasonable safe distance, or in preparation for a left turn, or where the centre lane is at the time designated for the use of traffic moving in the direction in which the vehicle is proceeding and official signs are erected to indicate the designation;

It seems to be the wrong charge. She was passing a vehicle and therefore seems to comply with this section. It looks like 141(2) should have been the charge. She needs to beat 154(1)(b) and I think she can easily.

(2) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the right into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the right-hand lane or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway and he or she shall make the right turn by entering the right-hand lane of the intersecting highway where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway being entered. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (2).
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You beat me to it, but can they amend the 154 charge to 142, either before or during trial?
 
Relax said:
Unless I have the wrong section, 154(1)(b) is completely irrelevant, as it refers to the middle lane as in the lane diving two single lanes in each direction?

154 (1) Where a highway has been divided into clearly marked lanes for traffic,

(a) a vehicle shall not be driven from one lane to another lane or to the shoulder or from the shoulder to a lane unless the driver first ascertains that it can be done safely;

(b) in the case of a highway that is divided into three lanes, a vehicle shall not be driven in the centre lane except when overtaking and passing another vehicle where the roadway is clearly visible and the centre lane is clear of traffic within a reasonable safe distance, or in preparation for a left turn, or where the centre lane is at the time designated for the use of traffic moving in the direction in which the vehicle is proceeding and official signs are erected to indicate the designation;

(c) any lane may be designated for slowly moving traffic, traffic moving in a particular direction or classes or types of vehicles and, despite section 141, where a lane is so designated and official signs indicating the designation are erected, every driver shall obey the instructions on the official signs. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 154 (1); 2015, c. 14, s. 45.
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I agree with your opinion. Wording isn't perfect though. I think it could be interpreted (wrongly imo) as three lanes in your direction as they didn't lock in the definition. In either case, I think it's the wrong section and she is not guilty of violating it. I assume that citing the wrong section is a fatal error that they cannot correct in court. It entirely changes your defense if they change the charge so that's a major thing. @Rob MacLennan is more on top of what is and isn't a fatal error.

EDIT:
If they manage to amend the charge and they go with 141(2), I think the argument revolves around the broken bus. While there is a right lane normally, she turned right from the rightmost lane that was available. Interpreting the law as no rights are legal when the right lane is blocked seems ridiculous.
 
Looks like a good chance to get rid of 2, address and middle lane, 3rd with signal is the challenge. Good luck!
 
sburns said:
Looks like a good chance to get rid of 2, address and middle lane, 3rd with signal is the challenge. Good luck!
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Yeah, I assumed it was for making the lane change to get around the bus, but after speaking to her, she says she doesn't remember why the cop gave it to her because she was nervous. So it will hinge on discovery and where the officer was in relation to the offending turn.
 
GreyGhost said:
If you are going to trial to represent her, you need a signed and dated note from her to allow you to represent her and give you authority to plead for her. I've done that for my wife before. I assume the same works for a child.
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Is this a new requirement? I represented my wife many years ago without such a note. In any case, If I need to argue that the road was clear during her lane change, or that the bus was sitting for longer than a normal stop and looked like it was out of service, do I need her to appear to provide that testimony?
 
Relax said:
Is this a new requirement? I represented my wife many years ago without such a note. In any case, If I need to argue that the road was clear during her lane change, or that the bus was sitting for longer than a normal stop and looked like it was out of service, do I need her to appear to provide that testimony?
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I don't know. The last time I went to court for my wife (about five years ago), I got chastised by the JP. I had a signed note from her including a copy of her license. The note said I could represent her but didn't include details on the extent of my authority.

You are probably correct that she would need to testify as to length of time time stopped to make that argument. Testifying is dangerous as once she is on the stand, prosecution can ask what they want. You might be able to get reasonable doubt by proposing the bus was broken and questioning the cop to see if they could dispute that claim. Be careful though, lots of cops lie with impunity while on the stand. A lie by a friend of the court can smoke your defense.
 
GreyGhost said:
I agree with your opinion. Wording isn't perfect though. I think it could be interpreted (wrongly imo) as three lanes in your direction as they didn't lock in the definition. In either case, I think it's the wrong section and she is not guilty of violating it. I assume that citing the wrong section is a fatal error that they cannot correct in court. It entirely changes your defense if they change the charge so that's a major thing. @Rob MacLennan is more on top of what is and isn't a fatal error.

EDIT:
If they manage to amend the charge and they go with 141(2), I think the argument revolves around the broken bus. While there is a right lane normally, she turned right from the rightmost lane that was available. Interpreting the law as no rights are legal when the right lane is blocked seems ridiculous.
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read section 141(3)...
 
raginduck said:
read section 141(3)...
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I did but that requires more than one lane to be explicitly designated as a right-turn lane. In this case, I doubt that would apply. We don't know for sure but if it was designated as a second right turn lane, cop might have been mad about turning into wrong lane but shouldn't have been so mad about making the turn as it would have been legal. 141(3) is basically turn into your own lane (curb lane to curb lane, one lane out to one lane out). It is routinely violated by most drivers.

(3) Despite subsection (2), where more than one lane of a highway has been designated as a right-turn lane, the driver or operator of a vehicle intending to turn to the right into an intersecting highway shall approach the intersection in one of the lanes and leave the intersection in the lane of the intersecting highway that corresponds to the lane from which the turn was commenced. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (3).
 
GreyGhost said:
I did but that requires more than one lane to be explicitly designated as a right-turn lane. In this case, I doubt that would apply. We don't know for sure but if it was designated as a second right turn lane, cop might have been mad about turning into wrong lane but shouldn't have been so mad about making the turn as it would have been legal. 141(3) is basically turn into your own lane (curb lane to curb lane, one lane out to one lane out). It is routinely violated by most drivers.

(3) Despite subsection (2), where more than one lane of a highway has been designated as a right-turn lane, the driver or operator of a vehicle intending to turn to the right into an intersecting highway shall approach the intersection in one of the lanes and leave the intersection in the lane of the intersecting highway that corresponds to the lane from which the turn was commenced. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (3).
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That's the wrong section. I was reading about turning from the next lane if the turning lane is blocked in a handbook.. but somethings off with its references.
 
raginduck said:
That's the wrong section. I was reading about turning from the next lane if the turning lane is blocked in a handbook.. but somethings off with its references.
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That would be a helpful reference which may apply to this case. Sadly, HTA updates sometimes move sections around and break links. It is also possible that section was removed from HTA. Is handbook dated? That could help with finding the relevant HTA version and tracking what happened to the section referenced.
 
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