There are no other mandatory warranties. So what are you asking about?
Selling a Bike to dealership for Tax free trade in before selling privately
- Thread starter gixxer_flexx
- Start date
Insurance covers what they feel is "fair value" for the bike. What you wrote down is irrelevant.
The reason for this is I could put down $40,000 as the value of my Daytona, pay tax on that and later file a fraudulent claim for that amount. They'll work with you to figure out what you get if (god forbid) it's stolen.
No idea if this is relevant to motorcycles, but I would consider declared value very carefully. A guy I know bought a boat in the states, and radically under-declared the purchase price. Some time later, there was an insurance claim made after a damage incident, and they pulled the import papers. After they cancelled his policy for a fraudulent claim, he still had a boat that unless he got it appraised, would only be valued based on his declaration.
you can call the MTO or just walk in to a licensing office and ask. Is the tax 13% now? I thought that was still 8%....
bummer
Jock
bummer
Jock
Doesn't apply here. Or at least I should say it hasn't so far.
Red_Liner740
Well-known member
Unless you're getting a smoking deal or this is that ONE bike you just have to have, i'd walk.
Everyone but YOU wins out in this situation. The dealership gets a sale, the dude gets tax written off his new purchase and you get saddled with paying 13% on declared value vs doing it private paying tax on a settled amount. hint hint nudge nudge.
Oh btw, if you come and give me **** how "ooooh, you're cheating the tax man", they can go **** themselves. Sales tax on an item that has already been sold? double dipping much taxman?
Everyone but YOU wins out in this situation. The dealership gets a sale, the dude gets tax written off his new purchase and you get saddled with paying 13% on declared value vs doing it private paying tax on a settled amount. hint hint nudge nudge.
Oh btw, if you come and give me **** how "ooooh, you're cheating the tax man", they can go **** themselves. Sales tax on an item that has already been sold? double dipping much taxman?
SweetOnion
Well-known member
You guys are all going pretty far on this... it is a friend of his dad's who lives down the street, I thought I read up at the top??
Why not just make a deal with the guy to split the savings on his new purchase, even if you do a 75/25 split for him, it's still not too bad. After all, we are talking about SAVING MONEY BY CHEATING/LYING TO THE MTO vs doing it LEGITIMATELY, AKA THE WAY THE OTHER GUY WANTS TO DO IT! You can't count yourself an automatic savings on tax simply by "agreeing to lie about the sale price" vs creating a REAL savings from the government by declaring a trade in.
This happens with people selling cars ALL - THE - TIME!
Next time I buy a new car, you can bet your sweet heiney that I will be selling the old one through the dealership I buy the new one from.
Red_Liner740
Well-known member
You read wrong, that was another poster chirping in about his experience in such matters.
You are more than welcome to try and haggle a deal on "tax deductions", you're still paying 13%. If by splitting the tax you mean lowering the bike price, so be it. But lowering the bike price is not in sellers best interest as in reduces his trade in amount.
In the end, the seller wants a 13% savings on a new bike. The end, he wants to accomplish this by trading in his bike. He wants to do this because he knows that he cannot sell the bike on the market for what the trade in is worth + 13%...
And you're more than welcome to trade in your car at the dealership, if you think you will get what used market can get you through a private sale, more power to you.
....and you want to talk about "CHEATING/LYING TO THE MTO"
When the HST was being introduced, originally used vehicle tax was going to remain at 8%. Vehicle dealerships lobbied to the government, AKA, made donations, AKA paid off the politicians to include used sales tax at 13% as it, and i quote, "Wouldnt be fair to new vehicle sales to compete with a lower tax of used vehicle sales"
BLAM, you get to pay an additional 5% on any and all vehicle purchases. Keeping the used vehicle sales at 8% would have benefited everyone but new car sales as lower tax on used vehicles would bump up residual vehicle value. Yea, that always sucks, having your vehicle be worth more
.
So 'scuse me if i'm not crying over here about the government bending me over.
You are more than welcome to try and haggle a deal on "tax deductions", you're still paying 13%. If by splitting the tax you mean lowering the bike price, so be it. But lowering the bike price is not in sellers best interest as in reduces his trade in amount.
In the end, the seller wants a 13% savings on a new bike. The end, he wants to accomplish this by trading in his bike. He wants to do this because he knows that he cannot sell the bike on the market for what the trade in is worth + 13%...
And you're more than welcome to trade in your car at the dealership, if you think you will get what used market can get you through a private sale, more power to you.
....and you want to talk about "CHEATING/LYING TO THE MTO"
When the HST was being introduced, originally used vehicle tax was going to remain at 8%. Vehicle dealerships lobbied to the government, AKA, made donations, AKA paid off the politicians to include used sales tax at 13% as it, and i quote, "Wouldnt be fair to new vehicle sales to compete with a lower tax of used vehicle sales"
BLAM, you get to pay an additional 5% on any and all vehicle purchases. Keeping the used vehicle sales at 8% would have benefited everyone but new car sales as lower tax on used vehicles would bump up residual vehicle value. Yea, that always sucks, having your vehicle be worth more
.So 'scuse me if i'm not crying over here about the government bending me over.
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Where have you been living for the past few years?
Don't just blame the government, blame the stealerships who argued they would lose business if they had to compete on used bike sales with private sellers.
After the HST came in, used bikes spiked in price at dealers due to non-competition.
This is one of those thick brown envelope "lobbyist" deals with some corrupt MPPs.
Back to the OP: I doubt there is much good reason to do this for the buyer. This is all for the seller. Move on.
The best way to buy a used bike is privately, pay a large amount of the bike by cheque, with receipts, the rest in cash. Declare the value based on what you paid by cheque.
No one can possibly prove you paid more than what is on the receipt.
Red_Liner740
Well-known member
LOL, re-read my post, i went back and expanded on it just as you were typing your post. I fully agree with you.
SweetOnion
Well-known member
Hey, I am right there with you in terms of how the tax percentages are a load of b/s with the coming of HST, etc... typically from what I read I do agree with the bulk of your posts on here.
What I am describing is actually doing the private sale, through the dealership. The amount the person purchases the car from you in the private sale goes right into the "trade in value" field on the new vehicle purchase. A Field which the amount populating it is tax free. That is all the seller is trying to do in this case. Obviously writing a lower amount of the trade in value, in order to benefit the buyer (the op), it would indeed cost the seller. But if the op can get the guy to throw him $1-200 cash just to make the deal happen, I don't see the big draw back for the op... it is just helping another person gain.
I would just try to work out a deal with the guy directly.
He saves 13% on the value of the bike.....
The dealer gets $xx because you know they aren't going to do this for free....
and you get a price that is marked higher than his asking price + plus pay the full tax...
Depending on the value of the bike I would be asking to split the tax savings since your getting the s#!tty end of the stick.
He saves 13% on the value of the bike.....
The dealer gets $xx because you know they aren't going to do this for free....
and you get a price that is marked higher than his asking price + plus pay the full tax...
Depending on the value of the bike I would be asking to split the tax savings since your getting the s#!tty end of the stick.
In my case, they are doing it free; they get a new bike sale out of it. If you're doing things on the up and up, it's exactly the same anyway.
Also, the guy buying the new bike doesn't save 13% on the whole bike, he just saves the tax on whatever he sells the old vehicle for. As in, the tax is applied *after* the trade in. The overall tax paid remains 13% on the full price of the new vehicle, as opposed to a private sale which theoretically would be 13% of (old vehicle + new vehicle) total tax paid.
MarcosSantiago
Well-known member
The safety inspection certificate is not a warranty of anything. A car or bike may pass certification today, and three days later it may need brake pads, but you can't take it back to the mechanic that performed the certification for a free brake pad replacement.
I thnk he means the bumper to bumper warranty, or the powertrain warranty (or any other kind of warranty) that dealers generally offer, or at least in public opinion, the warranty that is included and associated to a dealer sale (that I actually don't know if applies in all cases).
EDIT: I'd look elsewhere. There are tons of bikes out there. Is this one that good of a deal?
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gixxer_flexx
Well-known member
Ive renegotiated the selling price with him a little to account for this tax crap. If there was a way to find out the wholesale value as per the MTO, so i know how much i am losing that would be nice. 08 cbr 15.5km light mods no damage for roughly 5.2G
stevestang
Well-known member
Last I thought the mto has no value on motorcycles, there are no money figures listed in their used vehicle package. That's why so many people claim they paid much less to the mto then they really did. But I have heard of the ministry sending out letters to the old owner checking to see what they sold the bike for.
As above, if you bought privately you would likely "pay" between $1 and $1000, therefore you are chipping in up to $675 too much tax (and he is saving $675 in tax).
Red_Liner740
Well-known member
They do, its a fishing expedition. As long as both you and the seller are in agreement on what to say you're golden. Better yet, throw the letters out.
I've received those letters as both the seller and buyer and just chucked them. "What letter? Did you send it registered? Well i never got em, now **** off...."
I've received those letters as both the seller and buyer and just chucked them. "What letter? Did you send it registered? Well i never got em, now **** off...."
