RACE Lightweight Production Possible RULE CHANGE | GTAMotorcycle.com

RACE Lightweight Production Possible RULE CHANGE

LWTRacer

Well-known member
So going through the rule for Production LWT....I keep seeing glaring holes. With the Addition of the 300 Production class, the Lightweight Production rules are essentially the same.

Regularly the 550s/500s EX, GPz, etc...are forced to run against the SV650 in LightWeight Superbike...which as anyone knows is ridiculous.

My thoughts on the LWT rules are as follows.

These are the current rules:
380cc four stroke multi 400cc single 500cc four stroke air cooled (vintage) 400cc 2 stroke street based bike. Any year CBR250/300 Any year Ninja 250/300 Yamaha R3 RC390 Hyosung 250.

My thought is to change the following.

Take OUT 400cc 2 stroke street based bikes, like the RS250, RGV250, NS400r, etc (Christian Cote on his RS250 Aprilla was nice enough to move up a class, but really, he didnt have to)

And replace it with:

550cc vintage (25+ years old) muli-cylinders. Which would allow GPz550s, CBX550s, EX500s, into the class
.

With production suspension, and brakes the 25 year old GPZ550 is as fast as a modern Ninja 300 around Shannonville.
That would allow for more vintage racers to come out and compete, in LWT production, without having to bump into Light Weight Superbike. Where they frankly are not competitive at all.

Also I think that:
Bumping the size of singles in LWT production to 500cc from the current 400cc would open the door for Supermoto guys to come over and have some fun as well.

I talked to Chris, and he told me that I need a general consensus from the other LWT racers that this indeed makes perfect sense.

Looking at the times from the P3 Light weight racers from the Quinte TT this past summer and the lap times from the LWT production class I have found the following.

Light weight production-
Eric - 2:05 Jared- 2:07 JP- 2:08 Mike - 2:14 Ed- 2:17

P3 550s-

Doug Antridge- 2:05 Bill Quail - 2:06 Brian Madeley- 2:09 Dave Mascolitti - 2:09 Tim Voyer - 2:10

So the lap times are pretty well the same.

I am thinking that openning up the LWT production class to Vintage 550cc Multis that are 25 years old+ would help fill out the grid, and open it up to more bikes to be able to race.

So What are your thoughts, comments, concerns?

I will be at the RACE testing weekend (Pit #498 and #730) with a hard copy of this proposition, where I will hopefully get as many LWT riders to sign it as I can, then present it to Chris Chappelle

I know that in SOAR the Lightweight Superbike racers have modified the rules to now allow the SV650 into LWT Superbike...and allowing Brians FZR, and the other 550s to run in LWT Superbike. I dont want to annoy any of the RACE SV650 racers (as there are more SVs then pretty well any other bike) so I am trying to get some slight tweeking to the Production Rules.

Feel Free to email me as well... justin_marshall_498@hotmail.com
 
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Brian P

Well-known member
Moderator
Site Supporter
I think the 2 stroke rule was meant to let the RZ350s in. An Aprilia RS250 isn't in the same league. Don't know how you would distinguish them. (How many 2 strokes actually showed up?? Taking them out of the class won't have any impact if they weren't showing up anyhow.)

If you want 550cc "vintage" multi cylinders in, be careful what you wish for. The examples that you give (with the exception of the EX500) are VRRA P3 Lightweight bikes. If you let the EX500 in (by allowing any "vintage" - whether you call it 25 years old or VRRA eligible any period) then you also let in the FZR400 and so forth. My olde phat arse on my bike can do a few seconds faster than that - but I can generally pass P3 Lightweight bikes. A well ridden RZ350 or EX500 will be around the same as my Fizzer.

Any bike that old probably won't be in "production" trim any more. If this class requires OEM suspension parts ... you underestimate how garbage the stock suspension was on those bikes. There are none left that are (A) race legal and (B) "production".

Removing 2-strokes probably has next to no impact. Allowing VRRA P3 Lightweight bikes into the class - and exempt them from the "production" rules - would probably be consistent in terms of lap times.

Getting the VRRA folks to show up to anything other than a VRRA event is like pulling teeth. VRRA P4 F3 = huge, overflowing. SOAR Lightweight Superbike (all the same bikes are legal) = very small numbers. If you make them put their bikes back to stock form, there will be none.
 

LWTRacer

Well-known member
I think the 2 stroke rule was meant to let the RZ350s in. An Aprilia RS250 isn't in the same league. Don't know how you would distinguish them. (How many 2 strokes actually showed up?? Taking them out of the class won't have any impact if they weren't showing up anyhow.)

If you want 550cc "vintage" multi cylinders in, be careful what you wish for. The examples that you give (with the exception of the EX500) are VRRA P3 Lightweight bikes. If you let the EX500 in (by allowing any "vintage" - whether you call it 25 years old or VRRA eligible any period) then you also let in the FZR400 and so forth. My olde phat arse on my bike can do a few seconds faster than that - but I can generally pass P3 Lightweight bikes. A well ridden RZ350 or EX500 will be around the same as my Fizzer.

Any bike that old probably won't be in "production" trim any more. If this class requires OEM suspension parts ... you underestimate how garbage the stock suspension was on those bikes. There are none left that are (A) race legal and (B) "production".

Removing 2-strokes probably has next to no impact. Allowing VRRA P3 Lightweight bikes into the class - and exempt them from the "production" rules - would probably be consistent in terms of lap times.

Getting the VRRA folks to show up to anything other than a VRRA event is like pulling teeth. VRRA P4 F3 = huge, overflowing. SOAR Lightweight Superbike (all the same bikes are legal) = very small numbers. If you make them put their bikes back to stock form, there will be none.
We had a few two strokes show up. The RS250 Aprilla was lapping 11 seconds faster then the rest of the field... We asked him nicely to move to LWT Superbike, which he did. But He didn half too.

It is a Production class... however you can change the springs in the front, and heavier in the rear. To remain production. As you have said before, your FZR is far from production. lol.

I know the likeliness of the VRRA folks coming out to a RACE event is not going to happen, but guys like Brian Madeley comes out to all the RACE events, and Doug Antridge and Jason Collengello have both come out to RACE events and were confused as to why they were going to have to run in LWT Superbike on their CBX550/RZ350 respectively. Doug went out on his 4/6 Fizzer in LWT superbike and was still out run by a few SV650s.

The LWT production grid last year consisted of My Bandit 400, 2 EX500s, and a bunch of CBR250s/EX250s....the EX and the Bandit technically arnt supposed to run LWT Production but Chris told us to run in that class because the 250s/300s had 300 production to run in.

I posted the Lap times to show...that the P3 LWT guys are running around the sameish times. Lap times dont lie.
 

Brian P

Well-known member
Moderator
Site Supporter
You could allow "production" "street based" "vintage" 2 strokes to filter out the Aprilia. You could allow VRRA P4F3 if they are "production". You could allow VRRA P3 Light and exempt them from the Production requirement.
 

LWTRacer

Well-known member
You could allow "production" "street based" "vintage" 2 strokes to filter out the Aprilia. You could allow VRRA P4F3 if they are "production". You could allow VRRA P3 Light and exempt them from the Production requirement.
I like the way you think Brian.
 

bakaboy

Old, Slow and Grumpy
Site Supporter
Remember Eric's 2 05 lap time was on a CBR250 that did not adhere to the suspension rules.

The previous lap record was 2 08. Jared did do a 2 07 ONCE. A better marker for a CBR250 adhering to the production rules would be a 2 08 or 2 09. My phat arse did a 2 09 with a double draft on the Fabi straight.
 

LWTRacer

Well-known member
Remember Eric's 2 05 lap time was on a CBR250 that did not adhere to the suspension rules.

The previous lap record was 2 08. Jared did do a 2 07 ONCE. A better marker for a CBR250 adhering to the production rules would be a 2 08 or 2 09. My phat arse did a 2 09 with a double draft on the Fabi straight.
I thought Eric just had heavier oil and springs in his forks? Was he running emulators too? Where was the protest Dave????

I know Doug runs emulators, as do most of the P3 LWT guys, and P4 LWT guys.

So If Jared can run 2:07-2:08s consistantly on a CBR250...then one would reason the the R3, or Ninja 300 would be able to run 2:05s (just with the HP help)

Which would still mean that a Well ridden and prepped 300cc bike is pretty well on par with the vintage 550s. No? (in a production vs production sorta thing)

My Bandit 400 runs stock fork internals, just heavier oil, and springs. And sure I had the motor on the 250s, but by allens the CBRs were all over me again...
 

bakaboy

Old, Slow and Grumpy
Site Supporter
See below

I thought Eric just had heavier oil and springs in his forks? Was he running emulators too? Where was the protest Dave????

FRIENDS DONT PROTEST FRIENDS

I know Doug runs emulators, as do most of the P3 LWT guys, and P4 LWT guys.

So If Jared can run 2:07-2:08s consistantly on a CBR250...then one would reason the the R3, or Ninja 300 would be able to run 2:05s (just with the HP help)

Which would still mean that a Well ridden and prepped 300cc bike is pretty well on par with the vintage 550s. No? (in a production vs production sorta thing)

I WOULD EXPECT A WELL RIDDEN 300 TO BE UNDER 2 05


My Bandit 400 runs stock fork internals, just heavier oil, and springs. And sure I had the motor on the 250s, but by allens the CBRs were all over me again...
 

Brian P

Well-known member
Moderator
Site Supporter
I think a ninja 300 or R3 or rc390 would be on par with a gpz550 or the like. It won't be a million miles different with similar riders. Fizzers, rz, ex500 should be a little faster. My phat olde arse on a fizzer managed to stay ahead of a skinny kid on a rc390 at Grand Bend but I had to work for it. On a track with longer straights it would be no contest.
 

LWTRacer

Well-known member
See below
I think a ninja 300 or R3 or rc390 would be on par with a gpz550 or the like. It won't be a million miles different with similar riders. Fizzers, rz, ex500 should be a little faster. My phat olde arse on a fizzer managed to stay ahead of a skinny kid on a rc390 at Grand Bend but I had to work for it. On a track with longer straights it would be no contest.
So are you both agreeing that the 550 vintage bikes would be a welcome addition to LWT production then?

I figure an EX500/Bandit 400/RZ350/etc...all make about 55hp. But suffer from "old chassis builds" and brakes (the FZR400 is on another planet handling wise...best bike ever built in my opinion) and with the Ninja 300, RC390, R3 all putting out about 40ish hp...but have proper forks (USD in the case of the RC) and modern chassis and brakes...things are pretty well even.
 

Brian P

Well-known member
Moderator
Site Supporter
What are the rules otherwise for "Lightweight Production"? If it requires stock suspension then the older bikes will be handicapped by that ... I doubt if there is a stock FZR400 rear shock in existence that has any damping left in it. They weren't even that good when new. But I also doubt that there is a single FZR400 in existence that is race prepped, that still has stock suspension in it. I actually have a stock Fizzer shock somewhere in the parts bin. It's only good for holding the back of the bike off the ground when the shock that's in the bike is getting a rebuild.

The stock rear wheel size on the Fizzers is also a liability because you can't get good tires in the required 18" size any more. Almost everyone in VRRA has switched to different wheels.

You can argue that the absence of good tires and use of stock suspension would be the equalizing factors against the newer bikes ... but the real world effect is that there are no stock FZR400s in existence that are race prepped. It means you can allow them in the rule book but no one will show up because they're not legal. (I run Lightweight Superbike where all this is not an issue)

I keep riding my fizzer because everything feels so right about it ... When I did the wheel swap I hoped it wouldn't mess up the geometry too badly, and if anything it made it better ...
 

LWTRacer

Well-known member
What are the rules otherwise for "Lightweight Production"? If it requires stock suspension then the older bikes will be handicapped by that ... I doubt if there is a stock FZR400 rear shock in existence that has any damping left in it. They weren't even that good when new. But I also doubt that there is a single FZR400 in existence that is race prepped, that still has stock suspension in it. I actually have a stock Fizzer shock somewhere in the parts bin. It's only good for holding the back of the bike off the ground when the shock that's in the bike is getting a rebuild.

The stock rear wheel size on the Fizzers is also a liability because you can't get good tires in the required 18" size any more. Almost everyone in VRRA has switched to different wheels.

You can argue that the absence of good tires and use of stock suspension would be the equalizing factors against the newer bikes ... but the real world effect is that there are no stock FZR400s in existence that are race prepped. It means you can allow them in the rule book but no one will show up because they're not legal. (I run Lightweight Superbike where all this is not an issue)

I keep riding my fizzer because everything feels so right about it ... When I did the wheel swap I hoped it wouldn't mess up the geometry too badly, and if anything it made it better ...
Even in the "production" rules it allows to springs to be swapped, and rear suspension to be different. All the CBRs were using elka units, I have a Bandit 1200 rear shock in my 400.

Opening the rules for different wheels, and suspension shouldnt matter. When I would think Production, the motor is "sealed" and the frame, and chassis geometry cant be changed.

The RZ Cup was the last of the great Production classes, and they were allowed to swap fork internals, and even rear swing arms from the RZ swinger to the FZR600 (ill assume for bigger wheels) but they couldn't modify the frame, or internals of the motor (no big bore kits, port and polishing etc..)

Like you say Fizzer rear shocks are as rare as hens teeth, same goes for any GPz or CBx with OEM fork internals...its not possible. But stock motor vs stock motor and stock frames vs stock frames...the Gpz vs EX300...pretty well on par. Same as your Fizzer vs the new R3, and the CBX550 vs the Honda 300
 
So this comment in the Kawasaki 300 production class thread lead me to post this here since I thought it was more relevant to this thread then that one.

The RC390 KTM makes 40-45hp, another 5 hp isnt ludicris if you flash the ECU and pipe it. My R3 is Dyno'd at 40HP stock. And my Bandit has 58hp actually.


So I'm a bit confused I have two Aprilia RS250s (I'm not racing though just track days lol) They might make 60hp maybe on a good day in perfect state of tune and weather co-operating more likely 50-55 though. So why is it that you guys were so upset when the guy on the Ape ran his in that series. I read that he lapped significantly faster then the rest but was it his bike or was it the rider. Unless he has a boatload of money into his rs250 its not making that much HP and even if it is it is not likely to run a full season without serious cash behind it. The Aprilia RS250 is a street based two stroke it is not in the same league as a Honda RS250 or a TZ250. Its up about 100lbs and down about 25hp at least on those two bikes.

I think people believe a lot of hype around the RS250 being something its not, it is not a two stroke gp bike, its a street based two stroke that came to the USA and they designed a cup series for it so they could sell them (you couldn't ride them on the road like you could in many many other countries(EPA Regs)).
I love my RS250s I think they are great and a blast to ride and very rewarding when you get it right, but it's no gas and go bike. I would think that a Bandit making 58hp would give me on my Ape fits all day. Stock they are within 20kg of each other. At lets face it that Bandit is going to make 58hp much more reliably then the RS250 will. Hell I spend twice as much time fiddling with them at track days as I do riding. That's why I have two odds are one is not running perfect that day and I can rob parts from one the the other lol.

If course maybe I just suck on my RS250 :) Like I said I don't race just track days and until the kids get a little bigger it will likely stay that way.
 

LWTRacer

Well-known member
So this comment in the Kawasaki 300 production class thread lead me to post this here since I thought it was more relevant to this thread then that one.

The RC390 KTM makes 40-45hp, another 5 hp isnt ludicris if you flash the ECU and pipe it. My R3 is Dyno'd at 40HP stock. And my Bandit has 58hp actually.


So I'm a bit confused I have two Aprilia RS250s (I'm not racing though just track days lol) They might make 60hp maybe on a good day in perfect state of tune and weather co-operating more likely 50-55 though. So why is it that you guys were so upset when the guy on the Ape ran his in that series. I read that he lapped significantly faster then the rest but was it his bike or was it the rider. Unless he has a boatload of money into his rs250 its not making that much HP and even if it is it is not likely to run a full season without serious cash behind it. The Aprilia RS250 is a street based two stroke it is not in the same league as a Honda RS250 or a TZ250. Its up about 100lbs and down about 25hp at least on those two bikes.

I think people believe a lot of hype around the RS250 being something its not, it is not a two stroke gp bike, its a street based two stroke that came to the USA and they designed a cup series for it so they could sell them (you couldn't ride them on the road like you could in many many other countries(EPA Regs)).
I love my RS250s I think they are great and a blast to ride and very rewarding when you get it right, but it's no gas and go bike. I would think that a Bandit making 58hp would give me on my Ape fits all day. Stock they are within 20kg of each other. At lets face it that Bandit is going to make 58hp much more reliably then the RS250 will. Hell I spend twice as much time fiddling with them at track days as I do riding. That's why I have two odds are one is not running perfect that day and I can rob parts from one the the other lol.

If course maybe I just suck on my RS250 :) Like I said I don't race just track days and until the kids get a little bigger it will likely stay that way.
Cotes RS250 Ape was running somewhere around 75hp. Ported, polished, full arrow chambers, shaved crank, CR500 reeds, etc...

Here is a video- https://youtu.be/VrmrANRGDnU?t=2m39s
 

LWTRacer

Well-known member
So this comment in the Kawasaki 300 production class thread lead me to post this here since I thought it was more relevant to this thread then that one.



Cotes RS250 Ape was running somewhere around 75hp. Ported, polished, full arrow chambers, shaved crank, CR500 reeds, etc...

Here is a video- https://youtu.be/VrmrANRGDnU?t=2m39s
It was running in LWT production....and the bike had been heavily breathed on. So we nicely asked him to move up to LWT Superbike (with the SV650, and Hawks) where he was more competitive.
 
So this comment in the Kawasaki 300 production class thread lead me to post this here since I thought it was more relevant to this thread then that one.



Cotes RS250 Ape was running somewhere around 75hp. Ported, polished, full arrow chambers, shaved crank, CR500 reeds, etc...

Here is a video- https://youtu.be/VrmrANRGDnU?t=2m39s

Ok then I can see the problem, that's a tonne of money and investment into an RS250 wouldn't you have the same problem with a lot of bikes that people spent that much on. I guess that's the problem with multiple bike series someone is going to have the know-how or money to make their bike a "ringer". So just fyi if I show up one day on my RS250 don't mind me too much at the back lol.
 

LWTRacer

Well-known member
Ok then I can see the problem, that's a tonne of money and investment into an RS250 wouldn't you have the same problem with a lot of bikes that people spent that much on. I guess that's the problem with multiple bike series someone is going to have the know-how or money to make their bike a "ringer". So just fyi if I show up one day on my RS250 don't mind me too much at the back lol.
LWT Production is exactly that....Production.

The motors should be as the came from the factory.

Basically, Put a pipe one it, and tune the bike for the pipe. Some fast sticky tires, and swap out the mushy front suspension for a set of race springs (no emulators, but no one will protest you) and run what you have.

My Bandit still has the stock airbox!
 

bakaboy

Old, Slow and Grumpy
Site Supporter
...swap out the mushy front suspension for a set of race springs (no emulators, but no one will protest you) and run what you have.
We don't protest since we feel bad for you that you feel you need to cheat to be able to beat a 15 year old kid. :)
 
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bakaboy

Old, Slow and Grumpy
Site Supporter
Correct me if I am wrong but aren't you just proposing to bring Sportsmans Lightweight Class back?

So going through the rule for Production LWT....I keep seeing glaring holes. With the Addition of the 300 Production class, the Lightweight Production rules are essentially the same.

Regularly the 550s/500s EX, GPz, etc...are forced to run against the SV650 in LightWeight Superbike...which as anyone knows is ridiculous.

My thoughts on the LWT rules are as follows.

These are the current rules:
380cc four stroke multi 400cc single 500cc four stroke air cooled (vintage) 400cc 2 stroke street based bike. Any year CBR250/300 Any year Ninja 250/300 Yamaha R3 RC390 Hyosung 250.

My thought is to change the following.

Take OUT 400cc 2 stroke street based bikes, like the RS250, RGV250, NS400r, etc (Christian Cote on his RS250 Aprilla was nice enough to move up a class, but really, he didnt have to)

And replace it with:

550cc vintage (25+ years old) muli-cylinders. Which would allow GPz550s, CBX550s, EX500s, into the class
.

With production suspension, and brakes the 25 year old GPZ550 is as fast as a modern Ninja 300 around Shannonville.
That would allow for more vintage racers to come out and compete, in LWT production, without having to bump into Light Weight Superbike. Where they frankly are not competitive at all.

Also I think that:
Bumping the size of singles in LWT production to 500cc from the current 400cc would open the door for Supermoto guys to come over and have some fun as well.

I talked to Chris, and he told me that I need a general consensus from the other LWT racers that this indeed makes perfect sense.

Looking at the times from the P3 Light weight racers from the Quinte TT this past summer and the lap times from the LWT production class I have found the following.

Light weight production-
Eric - 2:05 Jared- 2:07 JP- 2:08 Mike - 2:14 Ed- 2:17

P3 550s-

Doug Antridge- 2:05 Bill Quail - 2:06 Brian Madeley- 2:09 Dave Mascolitti - 2:09 Tim Voyer - 2:10

So the lap times are pretty well the same.

I am thinking that openning up the LWT production class to Vintage 550cc Multis that are 25 years old+ would help fill out the grid, and open it up to more bikes to be able to race.

So What are your thoughts, comments, concerns?

I will be at the RACE testing weekend (Pit #498 and #730) with a hard copy of this proposition, where I will hopefully get as many LWT riders to sign it as I can, then present it to Chris Chappelle

I know that in SOAR the Lightweight Superbike racers have modified the rules to now allow the SV650 into LWT Superbike...and allowing Brians FZR, and the other 550s to run in LWT Superbike. I dont want to annoy any of the RACE SV650 racers (as there are more SVs then pretty well any other bike) so I am trying to get some slight tweeking to the Production Rules.

Feel Free to email me as well... justin_marshall_498@hotmail.com
 

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