Pulled over for Stunt (excessive speed), need advice! Please help. | GTAMotorcycle.com

Pulled over for Stunt (excessive speed), need advice! Please help.

M

MBoudreau

Member
Hello. Last week I was pulled over for excessive speed on my way into town (I live in the countryside). I am looking for advice on the following questions.

1) Should I hire a paralegal? Some say yes, some say no. I am a little confused about the process of the courts and how this will play out.

2) Ultimately, I want to beg the judge for a lesser charge (speeding), and I feel I have good reasoning for it. Firstly, this is my first offence (first time ever being pulled over), and I have never broke the law. I require a car to get to my job as there is no public transportation where I live. I make minimum wage and am currently paying back $40,000 in student loans (currently at 34k remaining) since I recently graduated University. I moved home with my father out in the countryside to do this. Being charged with stunt driving would make my insurance completely unaffordable and I would have to give up my car and not be able to work. The officer was very polite and even gave me a ride home as to not leave me stranded at the station, where there was also no public transit. It has been a really eye opening experience for me and I will never do anything to get myself caught up in this sort of thing again. I am very very remorseful.

3) As far as plea bargaining goes, how does it happen? Can I ask the JP at my first appearance summons for a lesser charge? Do I plead not guilty and wait for my trial, and then ask for leniency there? OR is there anything in between where this can be settled and I can get a speeding charge without even doing a trial. I really don't want to waste the courts time.

4) I have been recommended to do the following: that I should plead not guilty at my first appearance summons and wait for my trial. Arrive early for the trial and speak with the officer in the lobby and let him know before we go in that I plan to plead guilty and provide reasoning for requesting a lesser charge. Basically tell the judge everything I said in #2 and let them know how sorry I am (which I very much am! believe me this has been so stressful for me).


That's what happened, and mostly looking for answers to #3. I've considered just hiring a paralegal, but am worried it may look bad if I can afford representation while asking for a lower fine and charge.

I will check this thread regularly, thanks to anyone who has helpful advice :)

Cheers.
 
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Hire a representative and either delete this thread or remove the parts where you admit wrongdoing...any money you spend on legal help will not exceed your extra insurance costs if you don't.
 
remove the details of your charge from your post.

hire a known paralegal/lawyer with a good reputation for stunting charges. i.e. http://www.416charged.ca/contact-redline-legal-services-forch-larosa.html

there are many reviews around for others as well. I suggest representation because you've never gone through the court process. It will cost you a bit but it's worth fighting as it's a serious charge on your record if convicted.

Good luck.
 
MBoudreau said:
I removed what I think you wanted. Can anyone assist me with #3?
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dude, this isn't a ticket for 20 over...get representation...the consequences of losing your case are staggering...even if all you want to do is negotiate a lesser charge you should still go with someone in this instance.

it's not fair and probably not even legal...but the crown gives better deals to the hired guns than they will to johnny public.

your plan of "go and just ask the judge/jp/crown for a lesser charge" is inherently flawed...if your position is that you are willing to admit guilt why should they let you off the hook with anything less than the standard punishment?
 
MBoudreau said:
Hello. Last week I was pulled over for excessive speed on my way into town (I live in the countryside). I am looking for advice on the following questions.

1) Should I hire a paralegal? Some say yes, some say no. I am a little confused about the process of the courts and how this will play out.

2) Ultimately, I want to beg the judge for a lesser charge (speeding),

-you got charged with at least speeding, stunt and suspension. Plus tow / demerits and court charges..

and I feel I have good reasoning for it. Firstly, this is my first offence (first time ever being pulled over), and I have never broke the law.

- not a good enough excuse.. So person A kills someone but since it was their first offence, should JP let it slide?

require a car to get to my job as there is no public transportation where I live. I make minimum wage and am currently paying back $40,000 in student loans (currently at 34k remaining) since I recently graduated University. I moved home with my father out in the countryside to do this. Being charged with stunt driving would make my insurance completely unaffordable and I would have to give up my car and not be able to work.

- you know there's a financial option where you can pay installments right? Im sure they will ''lower'' the fine but it won't be drastic. Your insurance already has records that your license got suspended.

The officer was very polite and even gave me a ride home as to not leave me stranded at the station, where there was also no public transit. It has been a really eye opening experience for me and I will never do anything to get myself caught up in this sort of thing again. I am very very remorseful.

3) As far as plea bargaining goes, how does it happen? Can I ask the JP at my first appearance summons for a lesser charge? Do I plead not guilty and wait for my trial, and then ask for leniency there? OR is there anything in between where this can be settled and I can get a speeding charge without even doing a trial. I really don't want to waste the courts time.

4) I have been recommended to do the following: that I should plead not guilty at my first appearance summons and wait for my trial. Arrive early for the trial and speak with the officer in the lobby and let him know before we go in that I plan to plead guilty and provide reasoning for requesting a lesser charge. Basically tell the judge everything I said in #2 and let them know how sorry I am (which I very much am! believe me this has been so stressful for me).

THIS IS A SERIOUS OFFENCE. GET YOURSELF HELP AND DON'T LET A FEW HUNDREDS BUCKS IN PROFESSIONAL SAVING KICK YOU IN THE BUTT IN THE YEARS TO COME!

That's what happened, and mostly looking for answers to #3. I've considered just hiring a paralegal, but am worried it may look bad if I can afford representation while asking for a lower fine and charge.

My advice is for you to go visit the court room and see who are the regular paralegal in there. Having a paralegal that's well known will know who the judge is and their leniency. They will also have the upper hand in terms of talking down deals vs the avg joe the paralegal.

I will check this thread regularly, thanks to anyone who has helpful advice :)

Cheers.
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.....
 
Alright, i am definitely leaning towards calling xcopper or someone similar. do you think my chances are good at getting it reduced to speeding?
 
You never know what is going to happen in a court room.I know a 46 year old guy that got clocked at 160 kph on the 401 a few years back.To make a long story short the cop would not give him a break and charged him with stunt driving.Fast forward 8 months and the guy goes to court with decent represesentation and the crown attorney was a total a-hole ,not remotely interested in negotiating pleading guilty to a lesser charge.He had one speeding ticket in the last 25 years and no accidents.He was found guilty,it just wasn't his day.
 
kinda off topic, but what consequences can you expect from speeding 30-50kmph over? Or lane splitting?

Reality checks can be necessary when you have a powerful bike and everyone is cruising at 40kmph.

Any input?
 
Zivo said:
kinda off topic, but what consequences can you expect from speeding 30-50kmph over? Or lane splitting?

Reality checks can be necessary when you have a powerful bike and everyone is cruising at 40kmph.

Any input?
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30 – 49 km/hr over = 4 demerit points
Lane splitting could be "improper passing" = 3 demerit points
 
BrownBrady said:
30 – 49 km/hr over = 4 demerit points
Lane splitting could be "improper passing" = 3 demerit points
Click to expand...

Lane splitting is much more likely to land you an HTA 172 violation, and what the OP experienced.

Also, OP get a lawyer, or give up driving for 6 years.
 
For a charge as serious as 172. I personally wouldn't even bother with a paralegal, (they generally will be "happy" to take a deal to get you a speeding conviction). That will still negatively affect you going forward. Personally I would go with a lawyer, who will work to actually get you a not guilty decision.

Now let me educate you a bit. Firstly, you don't speak to the JP at a first appearance, (unless your pleading guilty outright). You speak to the crown. If you begin the convesation as you laid it out here.. I did it BUT...I haven't been in trouble before, I need my car, I have big student debt, etc etc etc. The crown is unlikely to offer any sort of real reduction. Why would they? You have already admitted you did it. Speaking to the officer, isn't likley to go well either. If she/he were going to cut you a break they would have done roadside.

It is also highly dependent where you were when you got tagged. Some forces/detachments, (if it was rural area it could have been OPP), have a zero tolerance policy for 172 charges meaning if your in that territory the supervisor expect the officer to lay the charge.

Throwing yourself to the "mercy of the court" (Lienency) is at best a crap shoot. There are just too many variables, (the cop/crown/JP) had a fight with their partner the night before and you pay for it. The JP/crown/cop wants to make an "example" of you. you get the idea.

You can not just look at the "costs" of the conviction, (impound fees, which you won't recover even if found not guilty), the fine, MTO points, suspension of your drivers licence. You have to consider the increased insurance costs for a considerable length of time. It is VERY possible your current insurer will drop you as soon as they see the conviction. Then you will have to go into the facility insurance market, where your rates will likely double if not triple. If you ride a bike you can forget about that as well as the insurance will be unaffordable for most.

A lawyer will cost you but not nearly as much as losing will.
 
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OP You have been given really good advice here. You need a lawyer. I'm just not sure that plea bargaining your ticket down will help your future insurance rates. Any conviction of speeding will markedly jack up your rates for years (3 or 6 years, I'm not sure) to come, or your insurance company might drop you completely. You need found not guilty of the speeding/stunting charge or you'll probably not be riding your bike/driving a car for a couple of years. For sure you mist try to fight the charge completely. Unfortunately, first charge or not, this is how insurance works in Ontario.
 
hedo2002 said:
For a charge as serious as 172. I personally wouldn't even bother with a paralegal, (they generally will be "happy" to take a deal to get you a speeding conviction). That will still negatively affect you going forward. Personally I would go with a lawyer, who will work to actually get you a not guilty decision.

Now let me educate you a bit. Firstly, you don't speak to the JP at a first appearance, (unless your pleading guilty outright). You speak to the crown. If you begin the convesation as you laid it out here.. I did it BUT...I haven't been in trouble before, I need my car, I have big student debt, etc etc etc. The crown is unlikely to offer any sort of real reduction. Why would they? You have already admitted you did it. Speaking to the officer, isn't likley to go well either. If she/he were going to cut you a break they would have done roadside.

It is also highly dependent where you were when you got tagged. Some forces/detachments, (if it was rural area it could have been OPP), have a zero tolerance policy for 172 charges meaning if your in that territory the supervisor expect the officer to lay the charge.

Throwing yourself to the "mercy of the court" (Lienency) is at best a crap shoot. There are just too many variables, (the cop/crown/JP) had a fight with their partner the night before and you pay for it. The JP/crown/cop wants to make an "example" of you. you get the idea.

You can not just look at the "costs" of the conviction, (impound fees, which you won't recover even if found not guilty), the fine, MTO points, suspension of your drivers licence. You have to consider the increased insurance costs for a considerable length of time. It is VERY possible your current insurer will drop you as soon as they see the conviction. Then you will have to go into the facility insurance market, where your rates will likely double if not triple. If you ride a bike you can forget about that as well as the insurance will be unaffordable for most.

A lawyer will cost you but not nearly as much as losing will.
Click to expand...

Op this is a retired officer. Take his advice.
 
Golluk said:
Lane splitting is much more likely to land you an HTA 172 violation, and what the OP experienced.
Click to expand...

No.

Lane spltting is not stunt driving...maybe if the guy is getting money stuffed into his pocket from the local tow company.
 
nm1 said:
No.

Lane spltting is not stunt driving...maybe if the guy is getting money stuffed into his pocket from the local tow company.
Click to expand...

Look again at the definitions of stunt driving. There are a number of aspects that fit the bill and that could be used to justify the stunt driving charge.
 
I would be willing to bet you money that if a cop caught you lane splitting you'd be getting a 172. It has nothing to do with a tow.
 
TorontoBoy said:
OP You have been given really good advice here. You need a lawyer. I'm just not sure that plea bargaining your ticket down will help your future insurance rates. Any conviction of speeding will markedly jack up your rates for years (3 or 6 years, I'm not sure) to come, or your insurance company might drop you completely. You need found not guilty of the speeding/stunting charge or you'll probably not be riding your bike/driving a car for a couple of years. For sure you mist try to fight the charge completely. Unfortunately, first charge or not, this is how insurance works in Ontario.
Click to expand...

ONE conviction of speeding for 49 km or less would have minimal if any effect on your insurance rates. Any effect it did have would last 3 years.

No conviction at all is the ideal goal, but if the OP is able to arrange a plea deal to a simple speeding conviction of 49 or less over the limit, that might be a much better and safer option than rolling the dice and going forward with a trial for stunt driving.
 
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