Private track | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Private track

Trials

Well-known member
And wait 6 months for a reply. The CMA courier is a 3 legged camel.
I might have an old one kicking around somewhere,
but it would be irrelevant because they might not even be using the same insurance carrier now.

Personally, I have never had any problem with the CMA staff that I have been in contact with, they were courteous, helpful and anything they were mailing me came in a timely fashion at no additional charge, ymmv.
 

GreyGhost

Well-known member
Site Supporter
... and you were liable for that tragedy, absolutely!
Such as; you strung a wire across the track at neck height, that would definitely do it.
You dont need to be liable, the lawsuit itself is enough to wipe people out. Barring that, courts work with ability to pay. If you have some assets and the person is brain damaged, your money goes in the pot.

Case in point, a bus company in Barrie was found something like 90% liable for a grade 8 student that opened the back door and jumped out and whacked her head. Realistically they should have been in the low single digits max, but the girl needed millions of dollars for a lifetime of care and the bus company had the most money.
 

Trials

Well-known member
...
Case in point, a bus company in Barrie was found something like 90% liable for a grade 8 student that opened the back door and jumped out and whacked her head. Realistically they should have been in the low single digits max, but the girl needed millions of dollars for a lifetime of care and the bus company had the most money.
Glad I don't drive a bus full of school kids for a living.
 

Trials

Well-known member
Had a friend Peter that died last season when he lost control of his motocrosser and apparently he hit a tree.
He died because he lost control of his motorcycle.
 

hedo2002

Well-known member
Site Supporter
The fact that the injured party is trespassing doesn't amount ti a hill of beans when it comes to lawsuits. There was a former gravel pit that was no longer operating. The owners did what they could to secure the property and it was signed, but virtually every weekend, the masses on ATV's, dirt bikes etc, swarmed there.

The owners, THOUGHT, they had done their due diligence. But it was well known, that people were in there riding. Then one sad day, an incident occurred, the rider died. The family sued. They won, the judge ruled that although the rider was indeed trespassing, the owners didn't take enough steps to secure the property, and given that it was well known as a place to ride, the owners certainly also had to be aware of this, and as such they had a duty to secure the land, be it better fencing/walls, security, etc. but simply putting a fence, (which people tore down to ride), and signs were not sufficient.

They lost millions. they now have better fencing and have the regional police attend, virtually every weekend with the authority to charge ANYONE found to be on the property. It is a crap show when the police arrive as people scramble in every direction to avoid charges. Been ongoing for many many years.

Try riding the OPG property out towards Port Hope. The trash and dumping of stolen vehicles, and OPG had enough AND didn't want the Liability. The OPP now regularly attend, and advise people unloading to load up and get out. They advise they have recorded plates if at ANY time the return and the plate is seen and an empty trailer you get a summons in the mail. Mostly local ATV'ers. It takes a few to ruin it for everyone.

OP. It doesn't matter HOW good of friends you THINK they are. As someone has pointed out, a SERIOUS incident, resulting in a "buddy" no longer being able to provide for his family, either because of a life altering injury, or death. Not only WILL that "buddy" but so will his family, (wife and kids, plus parents etc), be quickly convinced by an ambulance chaser there is MILLIONS to be had. You and your family, will NEVER again own ANYTHING of substance, including a house, bikes, vehicles. Despite what some have asserted, this will happen if you design and build a "track" you need NOT build anything, just merely an invite to do an inherently dangerous activity, (riding a bike or ATV etc), would qualify as such an activity.

Just call your insurance agent/broker and ask for a quote. IF they stop laughing long enough, by the time the risk management people get done coming up with a quote, you WILL quickly decide against it.

The one that comes with the package they send you when you apply for a sanctioned event.
My only experience is with CMA sanctioned events.

The absolute ideal circumstance from a land owner perspective, is when the rider in question is trespassing.
 

nobbie48

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Noise by-law alone in most places will be enough to shut it down if someone complains. It depends on the municipality, but most specifically prohibit racing of any motor vehicle.

Sadly Evoex is right, there is no way to do this without risking everything. If you built a track for yourself to practice on only, you will have better luck but still may get shut down. Eight acres is not very big in terms of separation distance to a different owner and/or a road.

I worked on one job where the guy bought a farm because he wanted to water ski. He was going to make his own lake in the middle of the farm and the municipality was giving him a really hard time. He completed a lot of studies, but afaik, he was never able to do it.

EDIT:
If you really wanted to do this, I would transfer ownership of the land to a numbered corporation to attempt to isolate you personally from liability. You may lose the eight acres, but have a good chance of keeping other assets. Consult a lawyer before you let friends on the property.
The land as a corporation has snags as well. There will be at least one shareholder and one director. Directors can be sued and typically have directors insurance. Explain what you're doing to an insurer and they'll run. Don't explain and the insurance isn't worth the paper it's written on.

I was under the impression that vehicle insurance was required unless you owned the land. The corporation owns it and it could be a fight to claim riding rights because you're a shareholder. Implying that ties you into liabilities.

Partners can agree to not sue each other but third party lawsuits are common, loss of income, companionship etc. If the rider is only crippled it's worse.

If the property was worthless it could be sold to a vagrant with nothing to lose in the event of an injury lawsuit but we're back to operating an uninsured vehicle on land not owned.

Basically it's like a cat chasing its tail to do this legally. Years ago I asked my lawyer how much it would cost for him to draft a warrantee waiver and the answer was a couple of hundred to write the draft but not until there was ten thousand in research.
 

raginduck

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Not sure if this is the right section, please move it it isn't.
Just wondering what are the rules/laws around racing around on private property? We have an 8 acre rural, residential/agricultural zoned property.
Can I just make a dirt oval and do some flat-track with friends? What about if I paved a kart/pitbike track? I'd assume certain noise by-laws have to be met but what else is there?
Thanks
I think you meant to say that you want to build a twisty driveway to the cabin/shack on the property.
 

raginduck

Well-known member
Site Supporter
The land as a corporation has snags as well. There will be at least one shareholder and one director. Directors can be sued and typically have directors insurance. Explain what you're doing to an insurer and they'll run. Don't explain and the insurance isn't worth the paper it's written on.

I was under the impression that vehicle insurance was required unless you owned the land. The corporation owns it and it could be a fight to claim riding rights because you're a shareholder. Implying that ties you into liabilities.

Partners can agree to not sue each other but third party lawsuits are common, loss of income, companionship etc. If the rider is only crippled it's worse.

If the property was worthless it could be sold to a vagrant with nothing to lose in the event of an injury lawsuit but we're back to operating an uninsured vehicle on land not owned.

Basically it's like a cat chasing its tail to do this legally. Years ago I asked my lawyer how much it would cost for him to draft a warrantee waiver and the answer was a couple of hundred to write the draft but not until there was ten thousand in research.
Make the group all be share holders in the corp.. with OP being the majority and some sort of redeemable clause in the agreements.. ?


I'm not sure about the uninsured vehicles on not owned land... Doesn't sound right... track bikes/cars aren't insured and are ridden on not owned private property.
 

nobbie48

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Make the group all be share holders in the corp.. with OP being the majority and some sort of redeemable clause in the agreements.. ?


I'm not sure about the uninsured vehicles on not owned land... Doesn't sound right... track bikes/cars aren't insured and are ridden on not owned private property.
As mentioned before if someone is seriously hurt the lawsuit will pick the richest pockets even if those pockets were the least to blame. Deep pocket owner then has to fight to get money from the poorer shareholders.

Like I said it's chasing your own tail to do it legally. Everything is fun until someone gets hurt.
 

Trials

Well-known member
The fact that the injured party is trespassing ...
A gravel pit is an active mining operation and as such they are subject to stringent rules and regulations regarding access and perimeter safety measures are required.


I wish I did own a gravel or sand pit, but sadly I do not.

Similar scenario you describe has been happening north of Kingston and last rumours I heard, the pit operators are now having the local riders sign waivers for weekend use. I have not been there recently so I can not 100% confirm this to be true, but it's a great place to ride so I will look into it further some time in the future. (post-covid) (I have no idea if there is a cost or club involved)
 
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Trials

Well-known member
Look into how snowmobile clubs make trails across private property, that would be the best model I can think of to base a private land track on. Lots of people own land with legitimate snowmobile trails across them, so it can be done and those land owners are not liable for squat if I get hurt on those trails.

(Vicarious liability is likely the legal term people are chasing here and that applies to employee/employer liability)

Re: snowmobile trails, the land owner does not see money for the land use in those deals, nor do they have a clue who is actually using them.
 
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Trials

Well-known member

GreyGhost

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Lafarge might be interested, but not me thanks ;) My desire would be to find sand or gravel or gold on land I already own.
My parents had people show up in an excavator one time fishing for a gravel pit on private land (apparently you can do this as mineral rights are separate from normal land rights). They operators had the stones to ask us if we had see any promising locations they should scout. Obviously "forgot" to tell them about the old quarry in the woods and they never found it. They did hit the hydro pole loading the excavator up and knocked out our power for a few hours. Eediots.
 

Trials

Well-known member
My parents had people show up in an excavator one time fishing for a gravel pit on private land (apparently you can do this as mineral rights are separate from normal land rights). They operators had the stones to ask us if we had see any promising locations they should scout. Obviously "forgot" to tell them about the old quarry in the woods and they never found it. They did hit the hydro pole loading the excavator up and knocked out our power for a few hours. Eediots.
Some land deeds are old enough to actually include mineral rights. Otherwise you are absolutely correct, it is amazing what rights can be extended to exploration of material on your owned land. Those guys with the excavator trespassing on private land were putting themselves into an extremely liable position by their actions. With the right actions taken, your parents could have acquired an excavator.
 

GreyGhost

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Some land deeds are old enough to actually include mineral rights. Otherwise you are absolutely correct, it is amazing what rights can be extended to exploration of material on your owned land. Those guys with the excavator trespassing on private land were putting themselves into an extremely liable position by their actions. With the right actions taken, your parents could have acquired an excavator.
I didnt follow them up but they were looking on two different neighbours land not actually on ours. I was ok with that (we told the neighbours in case they wanted to intervene). I went up the next day to see where they looked. I'm no geologist, but based on where they looked, I dont think they were either. They came up empty handed and never came back.
 

Trials

Well-known member
I didnt follow them up but they were looking on two different neighbours land not actually on ours. I was ok with that (we told the neighbours in case they wanted to intervene). I went up the next day to see where they looked. I'm no geologist, but based on where they looked, I dont think they were either. They came up empty handed and never came back.
Wise decision for the prospector. They were liable for all damages incurred, subject to a whole slew of regulations and restrictions and completely liable for land and crop restoration. If it happens on your property, tell them to make sure they use a really nice expensive excavator because you really want to own a nice excavator.
 

nobbie48

Well-known member
Site Supporter
My parents had people show up in an excavator one time fishing for a gravel pit on private land (apparently you can do this as mineral rights are separate from normal land rights). They operators had the stones to ask us if we had see any promising locations they should scout. Obviously "forgot" to tell them about the old quarry in the woods and they never found it. They did hit the hydro pole loading the excavator up and knocked out our power for a few hours. Eediots.
I thought that law had been changed. It was that an explorer could wreck the land and restore it by planing a couple saplings. It may go county by county.
 

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