Ontario doubling down on 172. | Page 5 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Ontario doubling down on 172.

GreyGhost

Well-known member
Site Supporter
172 was there before Doug. This goes back to not opening doors for the government in the first place.
To be fair, he could have used 282 to fix some of the problems (like the lynching outside of the court system). 172 came from before, he was along for the ride. With 282, he specifically chose to be a dicktator and that is on him.
 

Evoex

The God
Site Supporter
To be fair, he could have used 282 to fix some of the problems (like the lynching outside of the court system). 172 came from before, he was along for the ride. With 282, he specifically chose to be a dicktator and that is on him.
For sure, he does not get a pass.

once we look the other way the rest of the clowns will take advantage
 

Roadghost

Well-known member
172 was there before Doug. This goes back to not opening doors for the government in the first place.

I remember when 172 came in. But if he's talking about lengthening the suspensions that takes it beyond a kind of habeus corpus to a presumption of guilt without trial. Shame on the Canadian judges for ever allowing this sort of thing, but now we're talking about 30 day suspensions without trial? That has to be a Charter breach.
 

GreyGhost

Well-known member
Site Supporter
I remember when 172 came in. But if he's talking about lengthening the suspensions that takes it beyond a kind of habeus corpus to a presumption of guilt without trial. Shame on the Canadian judges for ever allowing this sort of thing, but now we're talking about 30 day suspensions without trial? That has to be a Charter breach.
Do judges allow it? Jp's only get to see it after the fact. Someone like SV may get annoyed and fund a push up to higher courts to try to get it struck down but most people dont have the resources or energy for that kind of fight.
 

Roadghost

Well-known member
Do judges allow it? Jp's only get to see it after the fact. Someone like SV may get annoyed and fund a push up to higher courts to try to get it struck down but most people dont have the resources or energy for that kind of fight.

I believe 172 went to Provincial court and was found constitutional. JPs don't make rulings on constitutionality of laws, they refer them to the Provincial court, only when a defendant issues a challenge. After Provincial it usually then goes to Superior Court (federal court), Federal Court of Appeal, then Supreme Court. It's way pricey to fight cases that far. Not sure why 172 was not knocked out years ago, there must have been some case law backing it up. A 24 hour suspension is on par with Habeus Corpus, 30 days is a punishment without trial IMO, crosses the line.
 

Evoex

The God
Site Supporter
I believe 172 went to Provincial court and was found constitutional. JPs don't make rulings on constitutionality of laws, they refer them to the Provincial court, only when a defendant issues a challenge. After Provincial it usually then goes to Superior Court (federal court), Federal Court of Appeal, then Supreme Court. It's way pricey to fight cases that far. Not sure why 172 was not knocked out years ago, there must have been some case law backing it up. A 24 hour suspension is on par with Habeus Corpus, 30 days is a punishment without trial IMO, crosses the line.
172 is currently 7 day suspension i believe.
 

Evoex

The God
Site Supporter
Yeah, not sure how they get away with that. Hard to say you're a free democracy when something like that becomes law.
Anyone who believes Canada is a free country is out of touch.
 

nobbie48

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Anyone who believes Canada is a free country is out of touch.
I used to be proud of being a Canadian, born and bred. I felt ashamed when other Canadians sullied our country, Ben Johnson's drugging, Conrad Black's visit to the US penal system etc. I was proud of our Covid response a year ago. Canada was a lighthouse of virtue.

Now we face censorship, punishment without trial, and the ravages of Covid caused by the incompetence or worse, profiteering, by people that we should be referring to as leaders.

I don't consider many of our civil servants as diligent workers looking after our backs. Politicians are worse.

It's hard to be proud of being a Canadian today. Yes it could be worse but that is a cop out. The potential of our country is being wasted. It's like the lazy student that does just enough to pass a course, gets a low mark, can't get a good job and then complains about not being able to afford to live their dream. Then he has children and they have to live with his sewage.

Canadians are generally stupid and it is in the best interests of the politicians and business leaders to keep them that way.

Canadian Fairy Tales:

Government Money: IT DOESN'T EXIST. It is taxpayer money that is entrusted to the government to be used wisely.

The word "Some" in any of it's various combinations. Someone, something, somehow.

Too many people see something wrong and say "Somebody should do something about it." and by saying that, they have done their duty to resolve the wrong.

Ask them who the "Somebody" is and what the "Something" is that they are supposed to do and you hear crickets. They mouthed words and the problem is no longer their responsibility.

Mass gullibility: We accept words and terms that roll easily off the tongue, assuming the best.

"It's like taking candy from a baby" Try it. They will make your life miserable.

"The repair will last indefinitely" would satisfy most customers. Indefinitely means undefined. Most people would expect a long time.

"I'm either on the phone or away from my desk" so you leave a message. You later find the person is on a two week vacation and you need and answer no later than tomorrow.

Our teachers do a decent job of getting across the three R's. I recall taking English comprehension and hearing the lectures on what Shakespeare meant then he said "Blah, blah, blah." I don't recall being taught to challenge terms like "Indefinitely", "Candy from a baby", "Away from my desk"

We as Canadians are getting very good at becoming Zombies.
 
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Dimitri

Active member
People complained, politicians decided to implement a process that sidesteps the entire justice system

We never had a justice system, we have a legal system. Two very different things.


Politicians who write these laws really need to spend some time in Germany on unrestricted sections of the Autobahn, maybe they'll realize road safety isn't really a speed problem but a s#!tty driver problem.

To become and maintain your license in Germany you must...

  • Complete a written and practical test
  • Mandatory theory and practical lessons
  • Maintain a valid first aid certification
  • If you do your test in an automatic you are not permitted to drive a manual
  • Vehicles 3 years old need to be safetied every 2 years, and their safety is far more detailed then ours.
  • Need a safety triangle, first aid kit, twp safety vests in the vehicle at all times.
  • You must stop if you witness an accident to render aid and act as a witness.
  • Residential areas go down to as little as 7km/h
  • Passing a bus at a stop must be done at near 0km/h
  • Vehicles with trailers are limited to 80km/h regardless of class of vehicle.
  • You can lose your license and go to jail for unpaid parking tickets
  • Go 26km/h over a posted speed limit and it's a fine and a one month suspension.
  • Winter tires are mandatory like Quebec
The list goes on... But no one who advocates for "let's follow Germany on speed limits", tends to think it through.
 

TwistedKestrel

King of GTAM
Site Supporter
We never had a justice system, we have a legal system. Two very different things.




To become and maintain your license in Germany you must...

  • Complete a written and practical test
  • Mandatory theory and practical lessons
  • Maintain a valid first aid certification
  • If you do your test in an automatic you are not permitted to drive a manual
  • Vehicles 3 years old need to be safetied every 2 years, and their safety is far more detailed then ours.
  • Need a safety triangle, first aid kit, twp safety vests in the vehicle at all times.
  • You must stop if you witness an accident to render aid and act as a witness.
  • Residential areas go down to as little as 7km/h
  • Passing a bus at a stop must be done at near 0km/h
  • Vehicles with trailers are limited to 80km/h regardless of class of vehicle.
  • You can lose your license and go to jail for unpaid parking tickets
  • Go 26km/h over a posted speed limit and it's a fine and a one month suspension.
  • Winter tires are mandatory like Quebec
The list goes on... But no one who advocates for "let's follow Germany on speed limits", tends to think it through.
I don't really have a problem with most of those things TBH. Standards for drivers in Ontario are too low
 

Dimitri

Active member
I don't really have a problem with most of those things TBH. Standards for drivers in Ontario are too low

Pretty much, since we are on a motorcycle forum, I should have included...

Mandatory training and testing to get your A1 is about €1,500.

A1 limits you to under 15Hp, two years later you can get your A2 with it's 47Hp limit. Only two years after that you can get your A.

Here the process is about 2 years, and you can jump on a on a Dodge Tomahawk on day 1.
 
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TwistedKestrel

King of GTAM
Site Supporter
What does a typical German rider pay in insurance while they're riding around on an A1? From what I can tell it seems much less than what beginners pay here... the cost of that training seems to break even pretty quickly
 

GreyGhost

Well-known member
Site Supporter
What does a typical German rider pay in insurance while they're riding around on an A1? From what I can tell it seems much less than what beginners pay here... the cost of that training seems to break even pretty quickly
It probably also helps weed out people that never should have been on two wheels to begin with. If you are just there to pose or try to show off, you won't be willing to do the time on a 17 hp bike.
 

matt220

Well-known member
To become and maintain your license in Germany you must...

  • Complete a written and practical test
  • Mandatory theory and practical lessons
  • Maintain a valid first aid certification
  • If you do your test in an automatic you are not permitted to drive a manual
  • Vehicles 3 years old need to be safetied every 2 years, and their safety is far more detailed then ours.
  • Need a safety triangle, first aid kit, twp safety vests in the vehicle at all times.
  • You must stop if you witness an accident to render aid and act as a witness.
  • Residential areas go down to as little as 7km/h
  • Passing a bus at a stop must be done at near 0km/h
  • Vehicles with trailers are limited to 80km/h regardless of class of vehicle.
  • You can lose your license and go to jail for unpaid parking tickets
  • Go 26km/h over a posted speed limit and it's a fine and a one month suspension.
  • Winter tires are mandatory like Quebec
The list goes on... But no one who advocates for "let's follow Germany on speed limits", tends to think it through.
I would advocate for the majority of these things, our licensing is too lax which is why our roads are filled with s#!t drivers and unmaintained deathtraps.
  • Residential areas go down to as little as 7km/h
  • Passing a bus at a stop must be done at near 0km/h
  • Vehicles with trailers are limited to 80km/h regardless of class of vehicle.
  • You can lose your license and go to jail for unpaid parking tickets
  • Go 26km/h over a posted speed limit and it's a fine and a one month suspension.
These are all half truths or just exaggerated to make it seem like Germany is a terrible place to drive. I have spent a lot of time driving in Germany through big cities, small towns and the countryside and it is the most pleasant place I have ever had the privilege to operate a vehicle.
 

Brian P

Well-known member
Moderator
Site Supporter
Normal dense-residential speed limits in Europe are 30 km/h, general urban speed limit is 50 km/h same as it is here. No one passes a stopped bus at "0 km/h" ... in fact this is impossible (the reality is that no one slows down). There are certainly not vehicles towing trailers going as slow as 80 km/h on the autobahn (an additional restriction is "right lane only" for these vehicles). While there are heavy penalties for exceeding posted speed limits ... those speed limits generally make more sense than they do here. Roads outside of built-up areas have a default speed limit of 100 km/h unless it's posted otherwise, and plenty of them aren't posted otherwise.

Mainland Europe in general is decent for behaviour on the roads ... but watch out for speed cameras!
 

Mad Mike

Well-known member
I would advocate for the majority of these things, our licensing is too lax which is why our roads are filled with s#!t drivers and unmaintained deathtraps.

These are all half truths or just exaggerated to make it seem like Germany is a terrible place to drive. I have spent a lot of time driving in Germany through big cities, small towns and the countryside and it is the most pleasant place I have ever had the privilege to operate a vehicle.
I too have driven plenty in Germany. Driver’s Road awareness is better, speeding on small tracks less. And adherence to the rules of the road is certainly better.

I’ve driven with as many lousy Germans drivers as I have Canadians. The tend to drive smaller cars, when I’m there we often rent people mover vans - the Canadians and Americans usually drive (for safety sake).
 

Dimitri

Active member
These are all half truths or just exaggerated to make it seem like Germany is a terrible place to drive. I have spent a lot of time driving in Germany through big cities, small towns and the countryside and it is the most pleasant place I have ever had the privilege to operate a vehicle.

I've got no problem with any of those regulations personally. Same way I don't care that Toronto put in speed cameras.
  • Residential areas go down to as little as 7km/h
  • Passing a bus at a stop must be done at near 0km/h
  • Vehicles with trailers are limited to 80km/h regardless of class of vehicle.
    • There is an exemption for a combined vehicle and trailer weight of under 3.5T, but an empty F-150 with an inclosed trailer without a load pretty much hits that weight (about 3T on it's own).
    • § 3 StVO 2013 - Einzelnorm
  • You can lose your license and go to jail for unpaid parking tickets
    • Can't find a German source for this directly in their law or regulations, but it's stated a number of times in tourist information websites.
  • Go 26km/h over a posted speed limit and it's a fine and a one month suspension.
 

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