New rider with many question

On a motorcycle, many times you need to have split-second decision making as they are so quick and nimble... and as PrivatePilot mentioned, if that 'new, inexperienced rider' gets a tad overwhelmed with his/her thought process, well....... need I say more???

Clearly you need to dust off your defensive driving handbook, lol. Last time I checked, constant scanning, speed and lane management are kind of a good habit to teach in the first place. Hence the constant reiteration of A REALISTIC VEHICLE AND TRAINING ENVIRONMENT. I don't feel remotely safer if they are in a car and finding these "split second" decision making scenarios, in particular in front of a tractor trailer, or facing a pedestrian.
 
and yet the only mechanism available to teach them the intricacies of such a heavy and large vehicle was to get out and do it. There is no starting out with a "small" version of an AZ class vehicle or air brakes.

To start out with, you have to be 18 to get a class A licence. You also have to have, at a minimum, a class G licence already. So, applicants have been driving for a few years with the acquired BASIC driving skill experiences which is my main point here - anyone going for their class A licence has already spent a few years driving and learned the ins and outs of the roads.

Further to that...

New truck drivers, assuming they're going to a reputable school, start out in a private parking lot putting MANY hours behind the wheel before they ever see a public road.

And when they DO actually go out onto public roads, they're usually bobtail to start with.

And they focus almost exclusively in low-traffic commercial areas for the initial baby steps.

When they get to pull a trailer for the first time, it's empty, not loaded with 40+K of freight.

And when they do get their licence most reputable companies put them out for at least their first trip with a driver trainer.

And when they get cut loose the very first time the reputable companies usually give them a light load on simple equipment..but by that time they're likely to have several thousand kilometers under the belts already under very close scrutiny.

So yes, there's a training slope, and most of it's done under a watchful eye. They've also spent a few years driving a car or smaller truck (class D perhaps) to begin with meaning they actually have a clue about what to expect from themselves and, most importantly, other drivers.

Your comparison is apples and oranges to a kid getting his M1 and heading out into Toronto traffic all alone having never even driven ANY motor vehicle before in his entire life.

And lastly, you'll notice I used the word reputable several times. Yes, we all know that there's quite a few GTA based non-repultable driver mills out there that pump out woefully untrained and clueless class A drivers, but that's a different ball of wax, and if you want to get into the nuts and bolts, my argument still stands - NONE of those drivers are getting cut loose on our roads with ZERO driving experience - they've all got experience, albeit class G experience at worst, but experience nonetheless. Many of them are not successful in the industry and go elsewhere very quickly because they either can't get hired (reputable companies won't hire poorly trained drivers, a road test weeds them out in a heartbeat) and many more rack up enough small accidents very quickly and become uninsurable by fleet policies, therefore removing themselves from the industry by default.
 
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Clap... Clap... Clap... A Standing 'O' for that speach!!!
 
I can't help but see a hypocrisy here. You're a truck driver, right? Allow me to bring you back to a time when you were learning how to do so.....without exception, every student I had in a tractor trailer approached this new task with a respectful trepidation, and yet the only mechanism available to teach them the intricacies of such a heavy and large vehicle was to get out and do it. There is no starting out with a "small" version of an AZ class vehicle or air brakes. And yeah, you'll be so much safer in a big truck, but God help everyone else.

I can't help but see a lack of understanding here.

What I said also applies to new truckers. Should someone with absolutely NO road experience drive a tractor trailer as their first vehicle??? Derp. No!!!

I dunno why you're so defensive. What I advise is the best path for a new motorcycle rider to start on. By starting in a car and then graduating to a motorcycle, he is taking away a portion of the risk - the portion that deals with lack of road awareness and general experience.
 
I think majority of the people have said to get some driving experience. When I first started driving around 10 years ago, I got t-boned by a van that ran a stop sign (and then fled the scene). That taught me a valuable lesson that driving on the roads isn't just about not making any mistakes but always being ready for the worst. I have avoided a couple of bad accidents on my bike during the last season, got cut off by a guy who didn't see me, he apologized but if I hadn't been paying close attention to my surroundings, I would be in the hospital. Experience makes a huge difference especially on GTA roads, I am pretty sure if I had been on my bike instead of my car in the couple of close calls I have had (due to my mistakes and mistakes of others), I would have been dead.
 
Or instead your better situational awareness from riding could have led to you avoiding the accident or narrow misses in the first place....the same reasons riders make better drivers....by a substantial margin. :rolleyes:

Forty-two percent of motorcyclist deaths in 2013 occurred in single-vehicle

These are riders riding drunk, over doing their skill set and riding bikes that new riders should not be allowed to own.

Europe and Australia (LAMs) and Japan have graduated systems to cut down on the single vehicle stats.....we dont. And if you think the GTA is crowded....it's got nothing on Tokyo.

"Oh I know how to drive...surely I know how to ride".....:rolleyes: middle age syndrome.

The good thing about that is I get to buy their bike :D
 
To start out with, you have to be 18 to get a class A licence. You also have to have, at a minimum, a class G licence already. So, applicants have been driving for a few years with the acquired BASIC driving skill experiences which is my main point here - anyone going for their class A licence has already spent a few years driving and learned the ins and outs of the roads.

Really? Yes, there is a prerequisite of a G license BUT show me anywhere that there is a requirement of a certain quantity of driving hours or experience to get an AZ. Additionally, a Z endorsement is a written test, done in 12 hours in a structured and regulated classroom. You don't even see a truck to get this license. A person could quite easily do the usual fast track to a G2, borrow Daddy's car in some small community and have a G license with virtually no experience.

Further to that...

New truck drivers, assuming they're going to a reputable school, start out in a private parking lot putting MANY hours behind the wheel before they ever see a public road.

between 4 and 8 hours actually. PTDI certification outlines this

And when they DO actually go out onto public roads, they're usually bobtail to start with. Harder to shift and brake than with a trailer, and still weight 10000 lbs

And they focus almost exclusively in low-traffic commercial areas for the initial baby steps. [B]Kinda what I've said a thousand times about starting to ride, but carry on[/B]
When they get to pull a trailer for the first time, it's empty, not loaded with 40+K of freight. Wrong, wrong, wrong my friend. Not fully loaded for sure, but it isn't even legal to test without a loaded trailer. Old news there; they changed that ruling so long ago that Jesus had a loaded trailer for his test.

And when they do get their licence most reputable companies put them out for at least their first trip with a driver trainer.

And when they get cut loose the very first time the reputable companies usually give them a light load on simple equipment..but by that time they're likely to have several thousand kilometers under the belts already under very close scrutiny.

Seriously, what planet are you finding these "reputable" schools and companies? SOP in a school is either a 10 or 13 speed from day one, and the first trailer you'll pull is 48 - 53'. You are seriously arguing with the wrong guy my friend, this is my background on many levels. What "simple" equipment are you talking about? A very short list of companies that employ steering wheel-holders to roll down an interstate at less than half rate like to have a few rape victims to drive their automatics, but the rest of the entire ****ing industry typically has new drivers working the city.

So yes, there's a training slope, and most of it's done under a watchful eye. They've also spent a few years driving a car or smaller truck (class D perhaps) to begin with meaning they actually have a clue about what to expect from themselves and, most importantly, other drivers.



Your comparison is apples and oranges to a kid getting his M1 and heading out into Toronto traffic all alone having never even driven ANY motor vehicle before in his entire life.

You might want to refer to my earlier post. Save the drama for your wife; nobody but you has suggested that scenario. Am I typing too fast or something? For the love of God......

And lastly, you'll notice I used the word reputable several times. Yes, we all know that there's quite a few GTA based non-repultable driver mills out there that pump out woefully untrained and clueless class A drivers, but that's a different ball of wax, and if you want to get into the nuts and bolts, my argument still stands - NONE of those drivers are getting cut loose on our roads with ZERO driving experience - they've all got experience, albeit class G experience at worst, but experience nonetheless. Many of them are not successful in the industry and go elsewhere very quickly because they either can't get hired (reputable companies won't hire poorly trained drivers, a road test weeds them out in a heartbeat) and many more rack up enough small accidents very quickly and become uninsurable by fleet policies, therefore removing themselves from the industry by default.

I'm in partial agreement here.....HOWEVER if you are in the industry, then you are also aware of the overwhelming driver shortage. Even the most reputable companies are pushed into areas that they are uncomfortable with, and most certainly no longer have the resources to partner up their drivers. In reality, the license class by definition means you are legally able to operate that equipment. If a person at the legal age can demonstrate the required competence to ride, then that is the case. Where do you draw the line anyway? Is a 21 year old on an S1000RR better suited than a 16 year old on a CBR 125? I would and will always argue that the 21 year old would have been safer if they STARTED on that 125. Speaking of apples and oranges; traffic awareness is pretty hard to ignore on a motorcycle. This skill that is required to even get a motorcycle rolling and shifting and stopping is exhibited by people that already have a general feel of what things are doing beneath them. If you couldn't do that, you would never make out into traffic to begin with, much like learning to shift a truck.

 
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I can't help but see a lack of understanding here.

What I said also applies to new truckers. Should someone with absolutely NO road experience drive a tractor trailer as their first vehicle??? Derp. No!!!

I dunno why you're so defensive. What I advise is the best path for a new motorcycle rider to start on. By starting in a car and then graduating to a motorcycle, he is taking away a portion of the risk - the portion that deals with lack of road awareness and general experience.

I'm not particularly defensive for myself, but for the new riders that all the Moms on here think they are saving. It is a sad hypocrisy, and a very uneducated one at that. What you advise for a new rider is fine for you, and that's great. But you're full of **** if you think that's the only or best way, plain and simple. How many kids grew up on dirt bikes or sleds, or even a lot of bicycle time, and they take right to it? What amazes me is all the rhetoric without a single reference to the tens of thousands of riders who DID NOT do it your way, and are enjoying the sport today. As a matter of fact, every single rider I know started out on their own, without even a course available to them. This OP wants to start gradually, which is what I don't understand about the fear mongering on here. Nobody said he should try out for the Isle of Man.
 
Buddy I don't give 2 craps about new riders or what they do with their lives. Ride off a cliff if you want.

I'm simply stating common sense and a logical progression. This has nothing to do with growing up on dirtbikes. I don't care if your mother squeezed you out on a wet Harley seat... without road experience, you're nothing.

I had the displeasure of meeting a lovely 14 year old girl on the back of a 16 year old kid's gsxr600 many years ago who went on to kill her literally 5 minutes later thanks to his awesome maturity and road awareness. Teens are just great for that kinda stuff. Come to think of it, I wonder if that guy still rides...
 
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You guys do realize that the op is gone and it's just the same three guys screaming over and over again, "no road experience, think of the children!".
Give it up guys, I got my bike on the road as soon as I turned 16, never took a course and here I am still alive.
Guess I'm the exception, not the rule.


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You guys do realize that the op is gone and it's just the same three guys screaming over and over again, "no road experience, think of the children!".
Give it up guys, I got my bike on the road as soon as I turned 16, never took a course and here I am still alive.
Guess I'm the exception, not the rule.


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You beat the odds. Many of us did. Congrats.
 
So all the drivers on the road with experience are good safe drivers? So all the 90 year old drivers should be the safest? Everyone is different and everyone matures at a different age (some people never mature) and driving is a skill that is a constant learning experience. You should never assume that you are now "X" age and driving for "X" years, therefore all is known and safe. Some people will drive for 20+ years and still be terrible at it. It is like everything in life, know your limitations and live within them. JMHO.
 
Buddy I don't give 2 craps about new riders or what they do with their lives. Ride off a cliff if you want.

I'm simply stating common sense and a logical progression. This has nothing to do with growing up on dirtbikes. I don't care if your mother squeezed you out on a wet Harley seat... without road experience, you're nothing.

I had the displeasure of meeting a lovely 14 year old girl on the back of a 16 year old kid's gsxr600 many years ago who went on to kill her literally 5 minutes later thanks to his awesome maturity and road awareness. Teens are just great for that kinda stuff. Come to think of it, I wonder if that guy still rides...

There are exceptions. I started riding in the dirt at ~7 yrs old. By the time I started riding a street bike (which was ridiculously easy compared to racing mx) I only had to be aware of the road, my surroundings, and to stay safely away from idiots. I wasn't learning to operate a motorcycle. Also as a kid when my parents drove I paid attention to what they were doing so even though I wasn't operating a vehicle I had an idea of what I should be doing.

I was let loose on the world riding a 98 ZX9R (first production street bike to break into the 9's in a 1/4mi) and taking my girlfriend (now wife) on the back. I put 25,000km on that bike, I'm still alive, and have no speeding tickets. It's up to the parents to know if your 16yo kid is responsible and capable of owning and operating a vehicle of any kind. Why does the gooberment have to get involved? Ahh because of the parents lack of being a parent and their obliviousness to their kids abilities (of course their kid can do it, they're special).

Now, not directed at the quote, the riders I fear most are the middle aged boomers who are having their midlife crisis and buying a bike for the first time or revisiting the sport after being away for 25yrs. They rode in high school for a few years, grew up, had a family, and didn't have the interest until now. They're the ones that look like their about to fall over at every stoplight, have the forks 1/2 way compressed by the time they stop so they can bounce back up and make the bike unstable, slip the ever living **** out of the clutch to take off and ride around corners at 89o just incase theirs a grain of sand on the road. After 2 years of experience they go sign up for a bike forum and start telling the world about how kids these days shouldn't ride "crotch rockets" and nobody needs a bike bigger then 300cc unless it's a cruiser which then it's ok to be 1400cc.
 
So all the drivers on the road with experience are good safe drivers? So all the 90 year old drivers should be the safest? .

You win. That's precisely what I'm saying. Excellent comprehension.
 
You guys do realize that the op is gone and it's just the same three guys screaming over and over again, "no road experience, think of the children!".
Give it up guys, I got my bike on the road as soon as I turned 16, never took a course and here I am still alive.
Guess I'm the exception, not the rule.


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This entire thread should be moved to the newbie section, where it belongs and it can die the slow death there.
 
This entire thread should be moved to the newbie section, where it belongs and it can die the slow death there.

Lets all go back to the thread where people say gravel roads count as "off roading". :lmao:
 
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