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Legality of no ownership

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Iceman

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Never heard a competition specific bike that had an ownership. Bill of sale maybe but ownership is the term applied when you plate a bike for road or public trails in Ontario, if you buy a motocross bike how are you going to get an ownership for that, it's intended for close course competition only. It ain't happening any more then a professional race car driver would have ownership for his formula 1 race car.
I've had an ownership with an offroad plate for nearly every competition only motocross bike I've ever owned.
Most of the trials bikes posted for sale privately in Canada on the Fb group's mention an ownership in the ad.

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Trials

Well-known member
I've had an ownership with an offroad plate for nearly every competition only motocross bike I've ever owned.
Most of the trials bikes posted for sale privately in Canada on the Fb group's mention an ownership in the ad.

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not saying they don't or can't exist but a government registered ownership is totally non required to operate a strictly competition vehicle.
How many motocross bikes have a steel plate mounted during an MX :/ about none?
What would the ownership say, Unfit?


Quebec requires plates on anything you can ride (exception being closed course competition) anything non-plated travels in enclosed transport to events. I've ridden trials events lots in PQ and other provinces with nothing other then the big number plate on front,
but I can't just stick my 4RT in the back of an open truck and travel into PQ legally, Ontario I can ymmv.
 
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Rossi86

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lots of tinfoil hats here.... tbh, we have had few race bikes with ownerships and some with none.

We've bought wrecked bikes from autowreckers with clean titles. We have sold bikes that have ownerships and the buyers, for whatever reason didn't even want the paperwork signed over. We sold a bike once, advertised as bill of sale only, 2 weeks later, the guy had buyers remorse and wanted to give it back.

We have also built a bike with all major components, including frames, purchased from ebay.

@bigpoppa.... Bottom line, ask questions about the bike's history, ask around about the seller, the racing community in Ontario is fairly small and so is the trackday community....
Sure, don't wear the tinfoil hat then. I'd like to see you explain to the cops why you're in possession of a bike registered to someone else. The reason they didn't want the ownership signed is so they can sell the bike to someone else if necessary, without paying the tax to register it on their name first. One of my bikes was like this and I asked the owner to register it first, then I'll buy it when he signs for himself on the ownership transfer, and the UVIP = official bill of sale. It cost me about $100 more, but I didn't have to worry about the other owner, that I never dealt with, reporting a different value to the MTO than I did with the UVIP.

Strange that manufacturers go to great lengths to stamp VINs on frames and engines, the gov keeps track and registers them all. While there are geniuses out there now that say apparently you don't need an ownership for a bike registered to someone else.
 

Slick_Steveo

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The reason they didn't want the ownership signed is so they can sell the bike to someone else if necessary, without paying the tax to register it on their name first.
You lost me there, let me rephrase what I said... We have sold bikes that were registered in my name to people who didn't want any of the paperwork, ownership, bill of sale etc, etc.

Strange that manufacturers go to great lengths to stamp VINs on frames and engines, the gov keeps track and registers them all. While there are geniuses out there now that say apparently you don't need an ownership for a bike registered to someone else.
We are talking track/race bike here. As I said in previous post, a person could possibly build a bike from parts bought off ebay. That, is not illegal to do. It is not also, uncommon for people to buy track/race bike from the states and import it as "parts". That, is also, not illegal to do.

While I'm not a lawyer, afaik, a bill of sale from one person to another is legally binding.
 

Rossi86

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You lost me there, let me rephrase what I said... We have sold bikes that were registered in my name to people who didn't want any of the paperwork, ownership, bill of sale etc, etc.



We are talking track/race bike here. As I said in previous post, a person could possibly build a bike from parts bought off ebay. That, is not illegal to do. It is not also, uncommon for people to buy track/race bike from the states and import it as "parts". That, is also, not illegal to do.

While I'm not a lawyer, afaik, a bill of sale from one person to another is legally binding.
Whoever bought your bike and refused the ownership is a complete moron. Can't imagine myself "no, don't need the ownership, I'll just take the bike." Sure, lots of things are bought like that: "don't need the house title, the house itself is good enough" 😂

Nothing illegal about building a bike from the ground up if you got proper paperwork for the frame.

Anyway, that's the way I've bought many bikes for almost 15 years. No paperwork = walk away, and you'll never have to worry about explaining anything to the cops. Yes, there are plenty of race bikes with no paperwork out there, and some could be stolen too, lots of stolen bikes end up at the track.
 

LWTRacer

Well-known member
Anyone wanna buy my SV650?

No paperwork.

Because it's a race bike. That hasn't had an ownership since it was built from a salvaged SV.

Also....

I'd like to see what you'd say Rossi86, if you ever bought a GP bike? Or a factory built Superbike.

They don't have VINs at all. The frames and motors are only stamped with production codes.

Jordan Szokes ZX10 does not have an ownership, right from Kawasaki. Are you saying that Kawasaki stole it?? It also doesn't have a VIN. And likely came only with a bill of sale.

My TZ250 only came with a Bill of sale right from Yamaha. Bike changed hands 3 or 4 times...and you can see where people don't give or get the ratty bill of sale from 20 years ago.
 

Rossi86

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Anyone wanna buy my SV650?

No paperwork.

Because it's a race bike. That hasn't had an ownership since it was built from a salvaged SV.

Also....

I'd like to see what you'd say Rossi86, if you ever bought a GP bike? Or a factory built Superbike.

They don't have VINs at all. The frames and motors are only stamped with production codes.

Jordan Szokes ZX10 does not have an ownership, right from Kawasaki. Are you saying that Kawasaki stole it?? It also doesn't have a VIN. And likely came only with a bill of sale.

My TZ250 only came with a Bill of sale right from Yamaha. Bike changed hands 3 or 4 times...and you can see where people don't give or get the ratty bill of sale from 20 years ago.
I have an ex factory CSBK race bike that I've raced for the last 2 years, and yes it came with a clean title that is registered on my name. Don't be a smart ass now, I'd buy from Szoke a blank frame bike with a bill of sale any day. But if the frame has a VIN and Szoke/Kawi says it has no ownership, I'm walking away again. It's very simple, if there is a VIN on the frame, then there is an ownership, and it's registered under someone.

If your TZ250 has a blank frame, bill of sale is ok. Hypothetically, what if someone else's TZ250 got stolen many years ago, they see yours and think it's their old bike with a different paintjob now. You'll have some proving to do to the cops, you may have all the proof you need, but how much simpler would it be for a modern bike: "this is the VIN, here's the ownership," problem solved in under 1 minute.

If your SV was built from a Salvage, then it would have an "Irreparable" title frame that could be registered at the MTO, if someone had done the paperwork right from the start when it was built... And now, you wouldn't have to explain to potential buyers why it has no ownership and how you came into possession of it.

At the end of the day, anyone is free to do as they want. People can get away with all sort of crimes that have no consequences until they get caught. Why would I put myself at risk with the law over a race bike that I'm BUYING with my money?!
 
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LWTRacer

Well-known member
I have an ex factory CSBK race bike that I've raced for the last 2 years, and yes it came with a clean title that is registered on my name. Don't be a smart ass now, I'd buy from Szoke a blank frame bike with a bill of sale any day. But if the frame has a VIN and Szoke/Kawi says it has no ownership, I'm walking away again. It's very simple, if there is a VIN on the frame, then there is an ownership, and it's registered under someone.

If your TZ250 has a blank frame, bill of sale is ok. Hypothetically, what if someone else's TZ250 got stolen many years ago, they see yours and think it's their old bike with a different paintjob now. You'll have some proving to do to the cops, you may have all the proof you need, but how much simpler would it be for a modern bike: "this is the VIN, here's the ownership," problem solved in under 1 minute.

If your SV was built from a Salvage, then it would have an "Irreparable" title frame than could be registered at the MTO, if someone had done the paperwork right from the start when it was built... And now, you wouldn't have to explain to potential buyers why it has no ownership and how you came into possession of it.

At the end of the day, anyone is free to do as they want. People can get away with all sort of crimes that have no consequences until they get caught. Why would I put myself at risk with the law over a race bike that I'm BUYING with my money?!
Firstly you don't have a factory Suzuki racebike. Do you know how I know that? Because Factory Suzuki hasn't sponsored anyone in canada since the mid 90s/early 2000s...I get that you're new to this whole world of racing. But someone who has support from a factory is totally different than someone who has a factory built racebike.

Anyway...

It's a bold reach that someone would see a racebike, and say "oh that's mine" and call the police.

Yes it happens, but if you made a sketchy deal in a dark parking lot for a bike. Then that's the risk you take.

If you bought a seasoned racebike from a fellow racer, that's known to our small community, then you're pretty well safe.

The VRRA is FULL of race bikes with no titles, so is the RACE and SOAR paddocks.
 

Rossi86

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Firstly you don't have a factory Suzuki racebike. Do you know how I know that? Because Factory Suzuki hasn't sponsored anyone in canada since the mid 90s/early 2000s...I get that you're new to this whole world of racing. But someone who has support from a factory is totally different than someone who has a factory built racebike.

Anyway...

It's a bold reach that someone would see a racebike, and say "oh that's mine" and call the police.

Yes it happens, but if you made a sketchy deal in a dark parking lot for a bike. Then that's the risk you take.

If you bought a seasoned racebike from a fellow racer, that's known to our small community, then you're pretty well safe.

The VRRA is FULL of race bikes with no titles, so is the RACE and SOAR paddocks.
It's as factory built as it will get in Canada, lots of unobtainium Yosh parts on it for the time it was built, from fairings, exhaust (not talking about the stuff you could buy online or at your local bike shops at that time) etc. Have you seen lots of Yoshimura fairings on your average CSBK race bike?

Great reasoning, I can also argue the streets are filled with crack users that never get in trouble with the law, so crack must be legal then... Which part of "to each his own," didn't you understand from my original post? Go buy another bike with no title for all I care.

These personal attacks are getting old dude, new to racing? You may have seen me at RACE only 3 years ago, been riding the tracks all over Ontario since 2010, most of those years in red group with other racers, built 4 track/race bikes since then. Seems to me you still have a problem with the "new" guy coming to RACE and doing better than you in his first year, than you've done in your whole racing career.
 

LWTRacer

Well-known member
It's as factory built as it will get in Canada, lots of unobtainium Yosh parts on it for the time it was built, from fairings, exhaust (not talking about the stuff you could buy online or at your local bike shops at that time) etc. Have you seen lots of Yoshimura fairings on your average CSBK race bike?

Great reasoning, I can also argue the streets are filled with crack users that never get in trouble with the law, so crack must be legal then... Which part of "to each his own," didn't you understand from my original post? Go buy another bike with no title for all I care.

These personal attacks are getting old dude, new to racing? You may have seen me at RACE only 3 years ago, been riding the tracks all over Ontario since 2010, most of those years in red group with other racers, built 4 track/race bikes since then. Seems to me you still have a problem with the "new" guy coming to RACE and doing better than you in his first year, than you've done in your whole racing career.
Actually Suzuki had factory race bikes. They were worth close to 250k, honda also had factory rc51s sp2s, Kawasakis zx7s that Jeff William's road for factory Kawasaki were worth close to 300k.

THOSE are factory bike my friend. Because you have some yosh parts means dick all, it's just a street bike with race parts on it. Round of applause to you.

Also you seem to like to attack me for my lack of perseaved skill or something. I am in the twilight of my racing career, I just do it because it's fun and cheap for me.

When I was a serious racer, racing when racing was at a high in canada I didn't do so badly. Sure no championships or wins but the guys I road against went on to ride in world championships, in the AMA, and are now retired or teaching schools.

2010, was in the dark ages of Canadian motorcycle racing and track days. It was the middle of a recession...
 

LWTRacer

Well-known member
Whose bike was it back in the day? That'll put an end to this side-track discussion ... we'll know the rider and therefore the bike.
The last factory Suzukis were out of the black foot team in the early 2000s, with mcbain, and Francis Martin on them. So I'm also curious where his "factory" race bikes are from
 
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Rossi86

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Whose bike was it back in the day? That'll put an end to this side-track discussion ... we'll know the rider and therefore the bike.
The last factory Suzukis were out of the black foot team in the early 2000s, with mcbain, and Francis Martin on them. So I'm also curious where his "factory" race bikes are from
It's Martin's bike, built by Blackfoot, still have the original Yoshimura fairings with Blackfoot decals on them. When I did a valve clearance, the cams were Yosh labelled, Yosh EMP Pro ECU, Yosh wring harness, a bunch of other Yosh brackets all around, etc.
 

Rossi86

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Actually Suzuki had factory race bikes. They were worth close to 250k, honda also had factory rc51s sp2s, Kawasakis zx7s that Jeff William's road for factory Kawasaki were worth close to 300k.

THOSE are factory bike my friend. Because you have some yosh parts means dick all, it's just a street bike with race parts on it. Round of applause to you.

Also you seem to like to attack me for my lack of perseaved skill or something. I am in the twilight of my racing career, I just do it because it's fun and cheap for me.

When I was a serious racer, racing when racing was at a high in canada I didn't do so badly. Sure no championships or wins but the guys I road against went on to ride in world championships, in the AMA, and are now retired or teaching schools.

2010, was in the dark ages of Canadian motorcycle racing and track days. It was the middle of a recession...
Right, keep talking trash here. The bike was built by Blackfoot racing, isn't that the same company that built Szoke's Kawi this year?! I had to google "perseaved" I think you meant perceived. I am racing against some pro racers that raced at the times you mention, they are STILL fast. The talent is the same, the only difference between now and then is the budget, and the vast majority of pro's are self sponsored privateers. You can't expect your average pro racer who shows up to the track by himself; plays mechanic, suspension tuner, race director all by himself, to put the same performance as someone with top of the line equipment with a team of mechanics looking after him.

You don't think the lower ranked pro's in CSBK could step up to the game if they had the same equipment and tech support as the top 5-10 riders? They may not take the top step of the podium, but racing will be a lot closer...
 

LWTRacer

Well-known member
Right, keep talking trash here. The bike was built by Blackfoot racing, isn't that the same company that built Szoke's Kawi this year?! I had to google "perseaved" I think you meant perceived. I am racing against some pro racers that raced at the times you mention, they are STILL fast. The talent is the same, the only difference between now and then is the budget, and the vast majority of pro's are self sponsored privateers. You can't expect your average pro racer who shows up to the track by himself; plays mechanic, suspension tuner, race director all by himself, to put the same performance as someone with top of the line equipment with a team of mechanics looking after him.

You don't think the lower ranked pro's in CSBK could step up to the game if they had the same equipment and tech support as the top 5-10 riders? They may not take the top step of the podium, but racing will be a lot closer...
That's a solid bike! Kudos to you on that one. I watched It when it first came out at shannonville blow away everything.


And do i think the current batch of people racing in Canada were as talented as they were in the early 2000s. . No not at all.

No amount of money will make up for the skill that is needed.

Case in point look at how long it took Jordan to be beaten. Look at how Frank Trombino shower up and embarrassed the Pro600 grid before he got hurt.

Steel sharpens steel, and right now there isn't enough talent to push each other to the next level.

Jordan is a fantastic bench mark, as he is hugely talented and WAS a world level caliber rider, so if you can't stay with him...or beat him. You're going knowwhere.

Brett McCormick toyed with Jordan when he won the championship and scored himself a WSBK ride right away.

But our talented riders are far and few between these days.
 

Trials

Well-known member
... You don't think the lower ranked pro's in CSBK could step up to the game if they had the same equipment and tech support as the top 5-10 riders? They may not take the top step of the podium, but racing will be a lot closer...
Can you ride dirt?
Jordan Szoke kicks a** on a dirt bike, you are never going to kick his a** on hard top if you can't even follow him in the dirt.
 

Wingboy

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Can you ride dirt?
Jordan Szoke kicks a** on a dirt bike, you are never going to kick his a** on hard top if you can't even follow him in the dirt.
And ice.
 
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