Is Gore-Tex worth it? | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Is Gore-Tex worth it?

jc100

Well-known member
Err.....natural skins and furs still have chemical byproducts from tanning processes etc that are still toxic. Chemistry is all around you. Chemophobia is too it seems.

Goretex works because the pores in the material allow gaseous phase movement as opposed to liquid phase movement. Furs and skins don’t work the same way, well skin is similar but isn’t as hydrophobic. Science wins with this one.

The only thing that nature has an advantage in is with insulation. I still haven’t seen a synthetic insulator for clothes that’s better than down.
 

Trials

Well-known member
Err.....natural skins and furs still have chemical byproducts from tanning processes etc that are still toxic...
Err.... Oilskin is cotton and linseed oil, possibly some bee's wax, no dead animal parts.
 

jc100

Well-known member
Err.... Oilskin is cotton and linseed oil, possibly some bee's wax, no dead animal parts.
Look up linseed oil toxicity (boiled), plus it’s flammable. Also cotton is usually bleached in the processing of the textile. It’s pretty hard to get away with no chemical waste byproducts unless you want to wear figleaves and compost them afterwards.
 
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jc100

Well-known member
While I’m thinking about this....what does oilskin weigh? Can it pack up small? Goretex membranes don’t need any reapplication of anything for their behaviour to keep working as it’s an intrinsic property of the membrane, what about oilskin?
 

Wingboy

Well-known member
Moderator
Site Supporter
While I’m thinking about this....what does oilskin weigh? Can it pack up small? Goretex membranes don’t need any reapplication of anything for their behaviour to keep working as it’s an intrinsic property of the membrane, what about oilskin?
I have owned Belstaff waxed stuff.It works quite well,it stinks,it's a bit bulkier than a top of the line goretex garment and they are a pia to maintain.Which is why they usually stink.Owners don't usually take care of them very well.But hey! Retro is cool.
 

Trials

Well-known member
Does it smell like body odour? Amazing enough, fresh sweat is odourless and what you smell is bacteria, baking soda absorbs that acrid body odour stink better then anything else.
 

jc100

Well-known member
I have owned Belstaff waxed stuff.It works quite well,it stinks,it's a bit bulkier than a top of the line goretex garment and they are a pia to maintain.Which is why they usually stink.Owners don't usually take care of them very well.But hey! Retro is cool.
I have a waxed canvas parka for the winter. I’m not bothered about weight or absolute waterproofness for this though. I still have goretex stuff for the bike.
 

Mad Mike

Well-known member
Err.....natural skins and furs still have chemical byproducts from tanning processes etc that are still toxic. Chemistry is all around you. Chemophobia is too it seems.

Goretex works because the pores in the material allow gaseous phase movement as opposed to liquid phase movement. Furs and skins don’t work the same way, well skin is similar but isn’t as hydrophobic. Science wins with this one.

The only thing that nature has an advantage in is with insulation. I still haven’t seen a synthetic insulator for clothes that’s better than down.
natural skins have substantially more breath ability than Goretex — it’s not even close!

I spent a decade designing barrier fabrics (like goretex), my stuff is used in trauma centres around the world, Antarctic survival wear and in the International Space Station. During that time I also made hats and gloves for Arctic and Antarctic workers... all natural furs and skins. Give me $15 worth of raccoon, wool shearling, linseed and mink oil and I’ll keep your head and hands warmer and drier than any hitech items you can find.
 

Mad Mike

Well-known member
While I’m thinking about this....what does oilskin weigh? Can it pack up small? Goretex membranes don’t need any reapplication of anything for their behaviour to keep working as it’s an intrinsic property of the membrane, what about oilskin?
Modernwaxed cotton needs the same periodic maintenance as Goretex. Both use DWR to bead water at the surface, Goretex uses polyurethane film as the barrier to moisture that passes thru dwr, waxed cotton uses oil and wax.

Bellstaf is old skool, modern waxed cotton doesn’t stink and performs comparably to Goretex. Try a Richa jacket, for me it outperforms Klim and Techniks best for comfort and barrier protection.
 

jc100

Well-known member
natural skins have substantially more breath ability than Goretex — it’s not even close!

I spent a decade designing barrier fabrics (like goretex), my stuff is used in trauma centres around the world, Antarctic survival wear and in the International Space Station. During that time I also made hats and gloves for Arctic and Antarctic workers... all natural furs and skins. Give me $15 worth of raccoon, wool shearling, linseed and mink oil and I’ll keep your head and hands warmer and drier than any hitech items you can find.
I’ve spent three decades as a chemist. There’s a reason why the fur industry declined and we don’t really wear animal skins anymore. Last I saw, special forces don’t gallop into action wearing beaver pelts?
 

jc100

Well-known member
By the way. It’s not breathability that’s the issue. It’s regulated pore size in what used to be a Teflon barrier that allow gas sized molecules to escape and water sized aggregated/hydrogen bonded molecules to not penetrate (hydrogen bonds aren’t as prevalent in the gaseous phase). Fishing net is highly breathable but you probably wouldn’t wear it in a downpour. The DWR is just to stop wetting of the outer layer, Gortex doesn’t require DWR to be waterproof but it does require periodic cleaning to stop the pores from clogging.
 

Mad Mike

Well-known member
I’ve spent three decades as a chemist. There’s a reason why the fur industry declined and we don’t really wear animal skins anymore. Last I saw, special forces don’t gallop into action wearing beaver pelts?
The fur industry declined because it's image got damaged -- cruel and inhumane is a hard sell unless it's packaged in a hot dog.

Special forces do actually use fur, perhaps not on the battlefield but fur mitts, hats and ruffs are still common parts of military and police dress in extreme climates.
 

Mad Mike

Well-known member
By the way. It’s not breathability that’s the issue. It’s regulated pore size in what used to be a Teflon barrier that allow gas sized molecules to escape and water sized aggregated/hydrogen bonded molecules to not penetrate (hydrogen bonds aren’t as prevalent in the gaseous phase). Fishing net is highly breathable but you probably wouldn’t wear it in a downpour. The DWR is just to stop wetting of the outer layer, Gortex doesn’t require DWR to be waterproof but it does require periodic cleaning to stop the pores from clogging.
GoreTex has not been made with Teflon for years -- today's GoreTex is is made by solvent laminating woven outer fabric to an ester based polyurethane film. Breathability in barrier fabrics, including GoreTex, is very low -- it's much closer to a green garbage bag than a tee shirt.

True GoreTex does not require DWR for waterproofing -- it would keep you dry even if the outer fabric was saturated. GoreTex requires DWR because the performance of the fabric is degraded if the surface wets out. Wet fabric forms a vapour barrier that chokes off the little breathability the fabric has; wetted fabric conducts heat rapidly; the TPU barrier layer is ester based polyurethane, somewhat susceptible to hydrolysis and microbial attacks in a prolonged wet state; and finally wetted out fabric stains, watermarks and soils considerably more than dry fabrics. DWR is necessary on GoreTex.
 

jc100

Well-known member
It declined for everyday wear as synthetic fabrics do as good a job and better in many cases. Even sherpas on Everest wear technical synthetic gear these days. Science is wonderful, embrace it.
 

Mad Mike

Well-known member
It declined for everyday wear as synthetic fabrics do as good a job and better in many cases. Even sherpas on Everest wear technical synthetic gear these days. Science is wonderful, embrace it.
This debate could go on forever, but I'm not buying your church & state argument -- embracing science and technology has nothing to do with the discussion, it's simply a matter of performance and cost.

Man-made textiles, whether made from synthetic or natural fibers, are more suitable than skins & furs for many applications but that's not always the case -- ever see a motorcycle racer use a nylon suit? Or a polar explorer with an acrylic fun-fur ruff?

Performance is certainly a factor, however equally important is manufacturing flexibility, availability and the single largest factor: cost. Cost is the most important factor, the material itself is expensive and volume production is much harder due to size and shape of the raw materials. Performance grade garment leathers have a cost of $50/yd2 and that's the cheapest skin available, furs run in multiples of that. Compared that to barrier fabrics like GoreTex which manufactures get for at $3 to $8/yd2.
 

Trials

Well-known member
All of this just because I wanted to see them to compare something other then plastic to plastic :|
 

jc100

Well-known member
This debate could go on forever, but I'm not buying your church & state argument -- embracing science and technology has nothing to do with the discussion, it's simply a matter of performance and cost.

Man-made textiles, whether made from synthetic or natural fibers, are more suitable than skins & furs for many applications but that's not always the case -- ever see a motorcycle racer use a nylon suit? Or a polar explorer with an acrylic fun-fur ruff?

Performance is certainly a factor, however equally important is manufacturing flexibility, availability and the single largest factor: cost. Cost is the most important factor, the material itself is expensive and volume production is much harder due to size and shape of the raw materials. Performance grade garment leathers have a cost of $50/yd2 and that's the cheapest skin available, furs run in multiples of that. Compared that to barrier fabrics like GoreTex which manufactures get for at $3 to $8/yd2.
product. Embrace the future, it’s good for you. Kevlar is pretty neat stuff.

Also, fur ruff? Fur around a hood works by keeping a pocket of air reasonably still between the fibres adding some insulation. Synthectic fur works just as well, it’s just physics.
 
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Mad Mike

Well-known member
product. Embrace the future, it’s good for you. Kevlar is pretty neat stuff.

Also, fur ruff? Fur around a hood works by keeping a pocket of air reasonably still between the fibres adding some insulation. Synthectic fur works just as well, it’s just physics.
Yawn. I spent a decade designing and testing high tech textiles -- seen a hundred Alien motos in that time, great idea - most find out too late that saying Kevlar 50 times on a garment tag doesn't make a product great.

Now lets get back to the simple stuff like the ruff. Before I go too deep, I'll ask you to explain the physics behind why the pile of cables behind your computer always get tangled. If you understand that, you'll understand why performance ruffs are always made using fur harvested at precise time of year, never synthetic (that's only used on fashion wear).
 

jc100

Well-known member
I did have a long post typed out here on the chemistry of performance polymers but I deleted it.

Did you really say “performance ruff?”

I’m still not really sure why you’re arguing your point to be honest. You only have to look around to see how widespread synthetic fabrics are (and how they have mostly replaced traditional textiles) for nearly every performance related use you can think of. Polar exploration (yes, unless you feel nostalgic), mountain climbing, special forces/military use, professional sports etc etc. Fashion is a different topic entirely though.
 
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canw650

Member
hey guys, while we're at it, is a bunghole of synthetic fibres better than one full of natural fur?

....its a motorcycle related video, on a motorcycle related forum, what are you really arguing about?
 

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