750,000 medium and heavy trucks on the road in Canada , may be a stretch to call it an art.
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Interesting Read
- Thread starter ToSlow
- Start date
150,000ish artists in Canada. That's an art.
Ever shifted an unsynchronized transmission? It's not the same as a regular car/truck.
Respectfully, being able to do it smoothly without grinding gears, up and down through potentially 18 gears, yeah, it's very much a skill. Then taking it next level and starting to double or triple shift through the gears both up and down while still not grinding, it becomes an art..
It's one of those things that everyone thinks is easy, even more so if they drive a standard car. First thing people who have manual tranny experience is that you basically throw everything you know about driving a manual tranny right out the window and start from scratch - it can actually be a detriment in trying to teach a new class 8 driver.
Chris-CJ
Well-known member
Shifting thru' a manual tranny is a disappearing art, just like doing a double de-clutch on a downshift or doing smooth shifts on a non-synchro box (on "dinosaur" vehicles)
Tell that to my previous GSXR750 and RSV1000R: neither had abs or traction control. I'd ride in the rain and control the tire spin (**** cold sport tires in the cold and wet lol) via throttle. Braking distance would increase by 100%
Not saying abs or tcs aren't helpful; simply countering they are not remotely needed if you know the limits via spending time crashing at a race track lol
I feel like I'm writing a "back in my day" boomer post but I'm younger than most here lmao
bigpoppa
Well-known member
tech is like power, its nice to have but not needed
and this is the crux of the issue.
new riders don't know the limits, hence the usefulness. maybe you won't engage ABS since you know the thresh hold, but if it saves even 1 life shouldn't we all be for it?
Chris-CJ
Well-known member
Graduated Licensing, a "definite yes"
ABS, ASC, a "yes"
Assisted Shift, a "maybe"
Riding modes, a "maybe"
Cruise Control, a "no"
.... but that is just me, each to his own, motorcycles are a personal choice.
I feel it’s good to learn how to control a bike when at the limits and not rely on the electronic wizardry. Having said that I think the aids are a huge benefit and if they save you even once that’s a win. If you never use them then there is no loss.
I’ve often wondered if riding a bike with the aids for several years you begin to lose your feel for the times without. I suspect that many riders that learned without probably seldom even have them kick in.
Sent from my iPhone using GTAMotorcycle.com mobile app
Priller
Well-known member
I don't think it's just new riders who can benefit from quality electronics. The most experienced rider in the world can't possibly know exactly where the limits of a tire are on the street. Track time is all well and good, but every bit of road has different grip. Add variables like temperature, sand, gravel, oil, diesel, water, asphalt composition, camber, tire wear, panic, tire temp, and on and on and you can at best make an educated guess. Tracks are different: you're repeatedly braking and cornering at the same points so you will be able to work off feel in a much different way
The first-gen rider aids weren't great. Early BMW ABS systems sucked, as did their power assist. The performance of the ABS was well below what an experienced rider could do. But things have improved dramatically since then. I remember reading a magazine test from just the beginning of when ABS was really starting to become a standard thing, and experienced racers could just barely do better (by a foot or two) after repeated attempts on the same asphalt than just grabbing a fistful of brake from 100-0. That's an absolutely best case for the rider.
Now, the systems have gotten so good they're almost imperceptible. With my Tuono, I can fine tune the level of intrusion on braking, traction and wheelie control to the point where I don't even know it's there except by the occasional flashing light to tell me (at the track, mostly). Even at a track, the latest superbikes are so powerful that they're almost unrideable at 10/10ths without the e-nannies to help out. Ask any experienced road tester whether they're faster around a track on a Panigale V4 with or without some help from at least the TC. (ABS is a finer thing, but not by much.) Watch the recent 44 Teeth superbike group test, where the quality of the electronics has become as important to a ranking as power or handling. Neither of those guys is a scrub, with Fagan in particular being a very fast and experienced racer.
I'll take them all day long if they don't get in my way and help when I need them, which is definitely the case on the Tuono. I certainly don't use them as a crutch, and they're certainly not infallible, but it's sure nice to know they're there...
The first-gen rider aids weren't great. Early BMW ABS systems sucked, as did their power assist. The performance of the ABS was well below what an experienced rider could do. But things have improved dramatically since then. I remember reading a magazine test from just the beginning of when ABS was really starting to become a standard thing, and experienced racers could just barely do better (by a foot or two) after repeated attempts on the same asphalt than just grabbing a fistful of brake from 100-0. That's an absolutely best case for the rider.
Now, the systems have gotten so good they're almost imperceptible. With my Tuono, I can fine tune the level of intrusion on braking, traction and wheelie control to the point where I don't even know it's there except by the occasional flashing light to tell me (at the track, mostly). Even at a track, the latest superbikes are so powerful that they're almost unrideable at 10/10ths without the e-nannies to help out. Ask any experienced road tester whether they're faster around a track on a Panigale V4 with or without some help from at least the TC. (ABS is a finer thing, but not by much.) Watch the recent 44 Teeth superbike group test, where the quality of the electronics has become as important to a ranking as power or handling. Neither of those guys is a scrub, with Fagan in particular being a very fast and experienced racer.
I'll take them all day long if they don't get in my way and help when I need them, which is definitely the case on the Tuono. I certainly don't use them as a crutch, and they're certainly not infallible, but it's sure nice to know they're there...
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Priller
Well-known member
Neeves is probably my favourite road tester. Bikes he likes tend to be bikes I like.
What he's talking about here, though, are some fairly zoot aids from Motec, and they ain't cheap. Hunting around for track upgrades for my RC51, I came across a site selling full race systems, including data logging and full race ECU's etc. Looked interesting until I saw the prices, then I wasn't interested any more...
If you note, part way through he refers to liking and using the anti-wheelie, traction control, engine braking management and quickshifter, and uses them a lot. The traction control, for example, may not always help him go faster, but it certainly bails him out occasionally if he gets it wrong...
There's a reason they limited rider aids in MotoGP, as it was going in a direction that would've ended up with riders going 100% brake to the apex, and 100% gas on exit, letting the ECU decide where the limits were, and using GPS to change the settings corner by corner. Nobody wants to watch that, so they kneecapped it all with a spec ECU.
JTR
Well-known member
Can I remind everyone here, that we are living in a world where many cars have automatic headlights, and drivers now get in there and flip on the high beams because they think the little blue light tells them when the lights are on. People used to automatic headlights, drive down the QEW at midnight with just daytime runners on, because they see light coming out. Costco has to have extra long gas hoses, and can't sell diesel because people don't even know what side their fuel door is on, let alone what handle to use if there's more than one.
People get used to having it easy, and then when the nannies fail, they die. Hell how many toyota drivers died because they were too stupid to turn the car off?
People get used to having it easy, and then when the nannies fail, they die. Hell how many toyota drivers died because they were too stupid to turn the car off?
JTR
Well-known member
Must be before your time, Toyota once upon a time, had a throttle sticking issue. People died. They didn't figure out to turn the car off.
ok I think that was during my time, but I don't remember everthing
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