If your in 6th on a liter bike at 100 km/h and are in no rush to come to a stop bliping to rev match isnt necessary.
heel-toe vs brake and blip (motorcycle)
- Thread starter TomC
- Start date
If your in 6th on a liter bike at 100 km/h and are in no rush to come to a stop bliping to rev match isnt necessary.
If you find engine braking annoying why are you down shifting at all?
on a bike i've always either brake+blip or relied on slipping a slipper clutch to brake fast...both these methods allow me to brake and utilize engine braking
in a car i either freewheel (clutch in/neutral) applying full force on the brakes or rev matching on downshift using engine braking to slow me down, but unable to apply the brakes...both of which just seem incredibly noobish to me...its just one of those things that bother me...too bad there's no such thing as a slipper clutch on cars, and i feel newer sports cars these days are taking too much away from the driving experience.
id like to take it out for a trackday before the end of the season, should probably get the hang of heel-toe before that though...its really not somewhere you want to try techniques that you've never tried before
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engine braking feels more aggressive at higher rpms...slows you down a little quicker i find.
174Racing
Well-known member
Perhaps the folks your watching aren't very smooth riders??? I blip to rev-match pretty well every down shift street or track but I really doubt you would see it from your bike, its not a big movement. And to make sure I just took a look at video from my last track day with the camera on the windscreen facing me and even from that close its a small fast movement and not too easy to see the blip. That said, I'm no pro, not by a long shot!
Maybe your riding buddies are over-revving on their downshifts due to the (from the sounds of it) exaggerated inputs... if this is the case, I would agree that it wouldn't be a smooth ride.
I will +1, give the blip and honest try doing it properly and I think you'll change your mind.
Just my opinion!
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Tripletrouble
Well-known member
I think some enterprising engineer should invent a synchromesh gearbox for you guys.
LOL! so you cross your feet as you're doing this? NO! left foot on the clutch, right toes on the brake pedal and right heel on the gas pedal as you're braking & blipping. Of course the position of the right foot on the brake and gas pedal can vary depending on the space between pedals.
TomC go into an empty parking lot and practice your heal and toe downshifts wearing shoes with thin soles, it takes a while but you'll get used to it. For me, heel and toe was was harder to get used to than blipping the throttle on bikes because of the way the pedals are positioned in my car. Shifting in cars with a manual H gear box is weird coming from bikes with a sequential gear box. In the car you have to go to Neutral first before you shift up or down while on the bike that only happens between gears 1 and 2. Shifting up or down without the clutch is easy on the bike, but it's harder on a manual car because you have to go through the neutral in each shift, and if you don't get the timing right you grind gears...
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soto
Well-known member
Heel-toe was harder to learn to do smoothly under all circumstances but becomes natural eventually.
The shoes you wear will make a huge difference. I like thin hard soles like sketchers. Also find which foot position allows you to be able to cover both pedals without slipping. I usually cover the brake with the lower left ball of my foot and the gas with the right side of the tip of my foot where the pinky is.
One of the skills you'll need is to brake smoothly without your heel resting on the floor. I would get good at that first and give yourself the feeling of progress.
When you're ready to apply throttle during downshifts, start applying at the same time you press in the clutch. You don't need to fully match the revs, you just need enough throttle so that the engine won't resist revving up when you let out the clutch. Basically it is better to err on the side of less throttle.
When it gets too easy start braking later and more aggressively and shift two gears down with double-clutching hahaha
Good luck!
The shoes you wear will make a huge difference. I like thin hard soles like sketchers. Also find which foot position allows you to be able to cover both pedals without slipping. I usually cover the brake with the lower left ball of my foot and the gas with the right side of the tip of my foot where the pinky is.
One of the skills you'll need is to brake smoothly without your heel resting on the floor. I would get good at that first and give yourself the feeling of progress.
When you're ready to apply throttle during downshifts, start applying at the same time you press in the clutch. You don't need to fully match the revs, you just need enough throttle so that the engine won't resist revving up when you let out the clutch. Basically it is better to err on the side of less throttle.
When it gets too easy start braking later and more aggressively and shift two gears down with double-clutching hahaha
Good luck!
rmemedic
Well-known member
Good point there about breaking with your heel off the floor.
I can't recall where I picked that up, but it's how I break... When I first started, I was heel on floor.
It must have been learning air brakes that got me to get my heel off the floor... And that's also the time I started to seriously rev match, and not long after, heel toing just sort of happened.
When you see an 18wheeler coming down the gears hard to slow down, you wouldnt believe how busy their feet are, most of those guys heel toe when stopping hard.
I can't recall where I picked that up, but it's how I break... When I first started, I was heel on floor.
It must have been learning air brakes that got me to get my heel off the floor... And that's also the time I started to seriously rev match, and not long after, heel toing just sort of happened.
When you see an 18wheeler coming down the gears hard to slow down, you wouldnt believe how busy their feet are, most of those guys heel toe when stopping hard.
i would say heel toe is much easier unless the pedals are not close. brake and blip requires the rider to modulate the throttle and brake both of which are not the same direction (meaning you have to rotate the throttle and pull back on the brake).
with heel-toe, the direction is the same. i can press the brake and easily modulate the throttle.
on a bike if you are already braking it makes it much more difficult if you decide to modulate the throttle.
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I find heel and toe in a car takes more effort to learn. Even the best racers loose a bit of brake pressure each time they blip the throttle (which could have translated to probably a tenth of a second in lap time).
But with practice anything becomes second nature.
But with practice anything becomes second nature.
i found it easier to heel/toe a car than it is to brake and blip at the same time. I find that i either don't get enough pressure on the brake, or the brake input gets jerky when I'm trying blip while on the brakes. Haven't yet found that happy middle ground.
