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Deleted member 50930
Guest
I got offered ~6% from Kawasaki to loan ~11k, they crazy. If it was ~1-2% I might have taken it because I can shove the $11k into investments that yield more.
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dealerships vs private sellers
- Thread starter bigpoppa
- Start date
Finding 2% is pretty much impossible. 1%? lol, maybe if you believe in unicorns.
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Deleted member 50930
Guest
Yup and even if I did they might give me less of a discount on the bike
SoulfulStrut
Well-known member
Spending beyond means... in this society the marketing campaigns constantly brainwash people "you deserve this....." When one buys something, boom! instantly s/he becomes "accomplished"... People fall for it all the time ... But I don't want to take subway to work with a cane at the age of 70 because I still have several mortgages to pay...
Priller
Well-known member
I think manufacturers are missing something with the low interest loans, personally. For the last few years, the biggest concern in developed markets has been the swiftly aging demographic of your average motorcyclist. I don't know how many of you could walk into a dealership in your late teens or early 20's and buy a decent new motorcycle with upfront cash, but I couldn't. Granted, my solution was to buy a cheapo used bike, but that's a maintenance challenge that most young people are unwilling to take on.
I look at Long & McQuade for musical instruments. They're aware that many of their customers are either young, or, um, 'young at heart', and so often don't have ready cash to pay for a $3,000 Les Paul. L&M offers their own in-house financing with a low bar for entry, knowing that the occasional default will be more than overcome by the huge increase in sales. They're smart to do it, and their dominance of the Canadian music retail world suggests it's an effective plan.
The reality is that motorcycling will not survive as we know it if only people in their 30's or later pick up the sport. It's on manufacturers to find ways to get kids on bikes, whether that's dirt bikes, mopeds, scooters, 125's. what have you. Yes, every single one of us here either found a way or is in the process of doing so, but the truth is we're not enough. Yes, we can all lecture one another about sound financial planning, paying cash for everything, etc., but if no kids buy Honda bikes, Honda bikes will eventually cease to exist or it'll become an insanely expensive niche hobby.
Obviously this has more to do with manufacturers than dealers, but the two are intertwined, some more than others. BMW is already offering a package in Europe that includes a bike, gear, and a training course as a way to simplify the process for people. Bennetts, the insurer, does giveaways and deals for training courses.
As for the predatory usurious rates some sign up for, I think that should be just as illegal as scamming the elderly out of their retirement savings. Caveat emptor is fine up to a point, but financial illiteracy is a real problem, and these outfits shouldn't be allowed to profit on that kind of ignorance or desperation. Predatory lending creates a cycle of debt that keeps people in poverty and does nothing for the overall economy. I've been lucky enough never to have gone down that path, but have known some who have, and it's hugely destructive.
I look at Long & McQuade for musical instruments. They're aware that many of their customers are either young, or, um, 'young at heart', and so often don't have ready cash to pay for a $3,000 Les Paul. L&M offers their own in-house financing with a low bar for entry, knowing that the occasional default will be more than overcome by the huge increase in sales. They're smart to do it, and their dominance of the Canadian music retail world suggests it's an effective plan.
The reality is that motorcycling will not survive as we know it if only people in their 30's or later pick up the sport. It's on manufacturers to find ways to get kids on bikes, whether that's dirt bikes, mopeds, scooters, 125's. what have you. Yes, every single one of us here either found a way or is in the process of doing so, but the truth is we're not enough. Yes, we can all lecture one another about sound financial planning, paying cash for everything, etc., but if no kids buy Honda bikes, Honda bikes will eventually cease to exist or it'll become an insanely expensive niche hobby.
Obviously this has more to do with manufacturers than dealers, but the two are intertwined, some more than others. BMW is already offering a package in Europe that includes a bike, gear, and a training course as a way to simplify the process for people. Bennetts, the insurer, does giveaways and deals for training courses.
As for the predatory usurious rates some sign up for, I think that should be just as illegal as scamming the elderly out of their retirement savings. Caveat emptor is fine up to a point, but financial illiteracy is a real problem, and these outfits shouldn't be allowed to profit on that kind of ignorance or desperation. Predatory lending creates a cycle of debt that keeps people in poverty and does nothing for the overall economy. I've been lucky enough never to have gone down that path, but have known some who have, and it's hugely destructive.
SoulfulStrut
Well-known member
True, manufacturer and dealers won't survive solely on mature consumers.... by "mature‘ it can mean physically (age) or mentally... I am leaning towards latter.
I agree with your comments about financial illiteracy as a real problem. Predatory lenders that prey on vulnerable elderly have no ground to say they are innocent and "business is business". It is a downward spiral for those who are unlucky. And the government/organizations should think effective ways of "nudging" people and provide easy-to-understand choices instead of intimidating people with confusing options/plans.
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Deleted member 50930
Guest
^
Some of us 20-30 year olds are also tired (exhausted) of this YOyo financial bust/boom crap and get into very short sighted thinking.......
Some of us 20-30 year olds are also tired (exhausted) of this YOyo financial bust/boom crap and get into very short sighted thinking.......
Honda and most of the other Japanese manufacturers are different animals than the Euro moto companies and HD because their bread and butter is selling cheap, small displacement motorcycles in mass volumes in Asia. The recreational market in NA and Europe represents a fraction of their world-wide revenue. Survival in this day and age means focusing on boosting brand presence in those countries. KTM's already figured it out. In reality, it's the other Euro mfgrs and in particular, the MoCo, that have their collective heads on the chopping block.
Honda already tried that a few years ago. They were packaging branded jackets and helmets with each purchase of a CBR125R. It didn't seem to be very popular. I don't think the bar to entry was gear, and most people want to look different from all the other riders out there with their own individual taste. Well, everyone but Harley riders who all shop from the same Orange and Black catalog.
The larger problem is that recreational motorcycling is suffering from the same problem Harley-Davidson has. It's just not cool with the kids anymore.
It's interesting you bring up L&M and Gibson guitars. In this era of electronic music, not many people under the age of 35 even know what a Les Paul is. For the most part, kids don't want to listen to the same music their parents listen to, don't want to drive the same cars that they do, and in terms of fighting for the consumer dollars of millennials and Gen Zers, where does owning/riding a motorcycle even rank in terms of social status next to showing off the latest smartphone in a mirror selfie or posting up Instagram pix of vacationing in Santorini?
Where is the excitement spurred on by pop culture? Boomers bought bikes because of Peter Fonda and Easy Rider. Xers watched Long Way Round and the ADV market exploded as a result. Ewan McGregor is 50 years old! Are the biggest names in TikTok showcasing motorcycles in their videos?
I think the motorcycle industry needs to make more of an impact in the mass media, beyond a Ducati Panigale making a cameo in rap videos and Transformer movies. They need young and popular champions that will drive demand and influence tastes back towards two-wheelers. And as much as it pains me to say it, I think the current generation of riders need to age completely out of motorcycling before younger people rediscover it and make it their own, as opposed to getting into what dad and pops are out there doing right now.
Not many 20-years want to pull up to a stoplight on a motorcycle next to a group of 70-year olds doing the same thing. That's FML territory...
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But how would bell/rogers/direct energy survive in the wake of open and honest communication?
Priller
Well-known member
Oh, I'm not worried about the survival of Honda as a corporation. They'll be fine. I am worried about Honda Canada continuing to sell motorcycles, though. I'm also worried about the survival of a healthy motorcycle industry aimed at places like Canada. With the loss of volume comes increased cost. Look at sportbikes, one of the segments hammered by a lack of sales. You could buy a top spec GSX-R 1000 in 2005 for just over $10k USD. That was the pinnacle of performance available, nothing was faster. Now a new one is $18k, and it's an outdated model. The new CBR Pirate Edition is over $28k USD. That's not just inflation, that's economies of scale.
You're absolutely right that the truly big markets are in Asia and other developing economies. Bajaj, who owns a big chunk of KTM, is the third largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world, almost entirely on selling budget, small displacement bikes in those markets. But I'm talking about all the major companies continuing to sell the large displacement bikes that we enjoy here. If the motorcycle side of these companies want to stay healthy, they need to find ways to get more folks on bikes, and the younger the better.
I think the BMW plan includes any gear in the store, not just their branded kit, and adding it to the finance package. I could be wrong, but that's what I heard. The other issue is that 125's are a bit basic for someone taking on financing. I think a 300 or 400 would be a better target, as it doesn't leave folks felling like they'll need an upgrade in a year. The idea is to offer something where it's an all-in purchase, no surprises, no hidden costs. I have no idea how successful it is, but at least they're trying something, rather than just throwing their hands up and muttering something about 'kids these days..."
Gibson is an interesting case. Their issues are as much about mismanagement as they are about changing demographics. A good friend of mine manages an L&M, and when I made the assumption that no kids bought guitars, instead gravitating towards synths and DJ gear, he actually said that their guitar sales to people under 30 is as healthy as it's been for a long time, and i still very much the core of their business. My own 18-year-old is very much into guitars, though he's also majoring in music at university, so is probably not a representative case.
There's definitely a lot of truth to this, though I think our generations' confusion about what pop culture even is anymore is a big part of the reason why both industry groups and manufacturers have totally failed to capture the attention of younger people. There's a temptation to dismiss it all as vacuous and inconsequential, but it's just not as universal as it was for us. If my son's peer group is any indication, what turns them off is gas guzzling and being seen as environmentally wasteful. They could care less about horsepower, how an engine sounds, inline four vs twin, etc. But I think the experience of riding a motorcycle is the key draw, and it's one that transcends generations. The sense of acceleration, even on a small bike, and the sheer joy of leaning into a corner are things that sell themselves. Getting kids onto bikes in the first place is the challenge. If I had to guess, electric bikes with lots of digital gadgets and screens will be more interesting than a 200 hp sportbike or 2 litre cruiser. If you pull up next to Grandpa on his cruiser with your futuristic e-bike, that's a different proposition. If that e-bike also makes a mountain of torque at 0 rpm, I'll be interested too...
bigpoppa
Well-known member
Interesting. Given how expensive BMW kit is ($1000 helmets, $3000 suits), that should entice some people into the stores. New riders could easily drop over $5K in gear alone at a BMW store. However, I don't think this business model is going to work if the customer is buying a G310GS for only $6K. Unless there is a cap on store credit. If it's $500, then that's barely going to get you a pair of BMW boots...
That is very surprising.
Yes! I was just about to add to my post above that there are a lot of things that the older generation aren't embracing. Electric motorcycles is one of them. GTAM member demographics skew from older to ancient as dust, and everything I read on here and other legacy web forums is that electric motorcycles just don't have the visceral appeal, the noise and rumbling, that traditional ICE bikes have.
Perfect recipe for some Millennial/Gen Z love.
All this old fart kvetching reminds me of Baby Boomer TV finance personality Jim Cramer not understanding Tesla's valuations in contrast to how its the darling stock for millennial investors. Leads me to believe if Tesla were to make an electric motorcycle with range and weight in line with current ICE bikes, I think that would certainly really perk up the ears of younger folks who don't ride. Either them or Apple.
But realistically, it's chicken and egg. Those companies aren't going to develop a new product from scratch if doesn't look like there's a market for it. Maybe a rebranding exercise...?
Make fun all you want, but Bieber also had a 848 EVO. Guys seems to like bikes.
Seems to me that old fart & fogey hate is the quickest and most unequivocal path for the validation of youth culture. Previous generations hated Elvis Presley and the Beatles as well. Who do Millennials love? Tesla, Apple, TikTok and the Kardashians. There's a way forward somewhere in all of that...
But I can't see it.
Because I'm old.
bigpoppa
Well-known member
wasnt hating at all
I think if someone crazy like elon musk comes up with an electric bike, that would probably be a big hit
Used private sale is great so long as you know how to vet what you're buying.
I use my wife's current ride as an example. Long story short, at the test ride before money changed hands I discovered the clutch was truly and completely pooched.
Had I not test rode it and checked specifically for that, we'd have owned a bike that needed work right out of the gate. Someone who didn't know how to check for a slipping clutch would have just handed over the cash.
Now, arguably, there's the possibility a dealer could or would do the same, but they've more on the line (bad reviews, OMVIC complaints, etc) so it's less likely they'd knowingly do so...or if they did accidentally, not make good on it. A private seller? Once the deal is done they can tell you to get stuffed with no reprocussions.
I use my wife's current ride as an example. Long story short, at the test ride before money changed hands I discovered the clutch was truly and completely pooched.
Had I not test rode it and checked specifically for that, we'd have owned a bike that needed work right out of the gate. Someone who didn't know how to check for a slipping clutch would have just handed over the cash.
Now, arguably, there's the possibility a dealer could or would do the same, but they've more on the line (bad reviews, OMVIC complaints, etc) so it's less likely they'd knowingly do so...or if they did accidentally, not make good on it. A private seller? Once the deal is done they can tell you to get stuffed with no reprocussions.
GodzillaV4
Member
I have never bought any vehicle from a private seller only ever used a dealer. I don’t know why it’s just been the way I am. How can you be sure a private seller doesn’t have a liens or something like that? Cant the bank or whoever holds the liens come after you if you buy it even if you don’t know about it? I know the seller is supposed to give you the uvip but how many people have it in there hands before they’ve already bought the bike? I hear so many bad stories from people who bought private sale.
UVIP tells you if the vehicle has a lien.
Yes, if they stopped payment they could repo the bike from you. However, is someone really going to put their credit on the line for a toy? Maybe a 20 year old at his parents house. But someone older who opens the garage to show you a few toys, probably not so much.
If you're buying used, you're going to get good and bad experiences from both private sale and dealerships.
There are crappy people out there who will try to take advantage of buyers. I've had my fair share of sellers who outright lie about the condition and maintenance of their bike. One guy with an obviously new fairing on one side tried to tell me that it was replaced because the bike was only in a 0 km tipover. Long scratches still on the swingarm on that side told a different story. Asked about maintenance on another bike, owner said he has no receipts because he did the service himself. Asked what kind of oil and weight he used, couldn't answer. ok.
Meanwhile on the dealership side, I've traded in many motorcycles. Not one dealer has asked ever asked me for proof of maintenance. How are they supposed to ensure to the new buyer that it's been properly maintained? Answer: they won't. At least with the dealership, the mechanics on-site will check it for obvious problems before taking a trade-in, but maintenance is a difficult thing to ascertain without tearing the bike apart. Buying private sale, hopefully it's the original owner and he will have some kind of proof of maintenance.
When you're buying a used bike, you gotta vet the bike. It doesn't matter who's selling. Most of the time, all they care about is getting your cash in their hand.
There are the odd circumstance where the bike was purchased and maintained by the same dealer and they have all service records available. Rare but it happens.
I have bought private sale bikes with a service log, yes it could have been faked but from the state of his garage and the appearance of other things in the garage I would strongly doubt it.
Not everybody is a scammer, thank goodness
I have bought private sale bikes with a service log, yes it could have been faked but from the state of his garage and the appearance of other things in the garage I would strongly doubt it.
Not everybody is a scammer, thank goodness
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