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Big ass ticket

Re: Big *** ticket

for my 2 cents, i wouldnt fight it.. They can bring it back up. The copper did you a huge favor so i wouldnt test him. If he reduced a 30 over to 15 over, i owuld fight it but when your original ticket is racing and ay 70 over, i would just count my lucky stars and not push the cop in court. But thats just my opinion
 
Ok good answers thanks everyone.. Has anyone tried that option meeting with the prosecutor ? My bike is American so it reads miles not km also I only been legally riding since September so they'll think I'm new no offenses on my driving record .. So u think I can talk to this guy and get the price down atleast? And just say I didn't know how fast I was going because a turn was coming up and quickly glanced down and read the miles instead of km? Milton court btw


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Re: Big *** ticket

I personally would enlist a respectable paralegal... and I wouldn't try that excuse
 
Re: Big *** ticket

Ok good answers thanks everyone.. Has anyone tried that option meeting with the prosecutor ? My bike is American so it reads miles not km also I only been legally riding since September so they'll think I'm new no offenses on my driving record .. So u think I can talk to this guy and get the price down atleast? And just say I didn't know how fast I was going because a turn was coming up and quickly glanced down and read the miles instead of km? Milton court btw

My 2 cents: new rider; claims not to, or actually doesn't, know how to read his speedometer; caght doing 130 in a 60 (sic). Take the break you have been given.
 
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Re: Big *** ticket

Rules of thumb always have caveats.

His 49 over ticket $360 fine is based on a set fine of $6 per km over plus a 25% victim surcharge.

The set fine penalty for speeding 50+ km over is $9.75 per km over plus 25% victim surcharge. Based on the original 70 km over measured by the cop he's looking at a potential fine of $850 if he fights and the court then convicts on the original speed and set fine for that speed. That's an increase of $490 from the original fine.

Sometimes you should just be thankful for what you avoided. If the OP was to fight the ticket and it goes south on him, just the difference in fine amounts would have paid for even more track days than the original fine.

@griff2 that is true and also keep in mind the courts can also suspend OP's license for 30 days. It's truly surprising that getting +50km/h stunt driving is minimum $2000 fine but going +70km/h under S128 is only $850.

Suspension of licence on conviction
(15) Subject to subsection 207 (7), where a court has convicted a person for a contravention of this section and has determined that the person convicted was driving at a rate of speed of 50 or more kilometres per hour greater than the speed limit, the court may,
(a) suspend the driver’s licence of the person for a period of not more than 30 days;

I recommend requesting trial with the intent of never going to trial; because the consequences of being found guilty will destroy you if the speed is amended back to +70km/h.

Once you get your notice of trial, request disclosure; don't pay the fine until you see the officer's evidence against you. You also have an officer no-show opportunity as well at your trial.

If the officer is present, and his notes are good with evidence on how he obtained your speed then do not proceed to trial, you can ask extra time to pay if the fine is too much. I don't believe the courts will lower the fine, because you were given a godlike break.

The courts can only amend the speed once you proceed to trial. The officer also has up to 6 months to charge you with +70km/h through a Part III summons. So you're not really out of the woodwork until the statue of limitation has passed.

Ok good answers thanks everyone.. Has anyone tried that option meeting with the prosecutor ? My bike is American so it reads miles not km also I only been legally riding since September so they'll think I'm new no offenses on my driving record .. So u think I can talk to this guy and get the price down atleast? And just say I didn't know how fast I was going because a turn was coming up and quickly glanced down and read the miles instead of km? Milton court btw
If you were actually charged with +70km/h, a lot of Ontario prosecutors would not even offer you a plea-deal. They'll proceed straight to trial and make an example out of you.

Don't under any circumstance think you're going to be given an even further break. Don't choose meeting with prosecutor, they'll laugh at you and tell you to **** off. The MPH conversion may have worked with the officer, but that's as far as it goes. Legally you don't have a leg to stand on because it's an "absolute liability offence"; courts are only interested in how fast you were going, not whether you intended to speed or knew you were speeding.
 
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Re: Big *** ticket

All this makes a "good story" but none of it is a defence to the charge.

Having said that if you try the ole, my speedometer is in miles not km, then the crown will look at you and say but you were travelling at more than DOUBLE the limit and you didn't realize it? That excuse "MIGHT" work if you were charged with say 15k over the limit NOT at 70 Km/h over. If you can distinguish that your speed is that high then it might be a good idea to sell the bike cause your going to get into a LOT of trouble in the future.

the other part of your post that is a red flag is this statement "I only been legally riding since September so they'll think I'm new no offenses on my driving record" Not sure if that means you were riding illegally before last Sept..lol They won't "think" anything about your driving they WILL have it at hand, they pull your abstract before going into court, (they do this to ensure people don't show up with a "sob story" then they look at the record and the guy has 5 previous convictions..lol). SO if you have other convictions, (regardless of in a car on a dirt bike, or impaired in a boat etc.). then your BEST option is to pay the ticket now. If you have previous convictions, then the crown isn't liklely to even consider dropping the speed.

Ok good answers thanks everyone.. Has anyone tried that option meeting with the prosecutor ? My bike is American so it reads miles not km also I only been legally riding since September so they'll think I'm new no offenses on my driving record .. So u think I can talk to this guy and get the price down atleast? And just say I didn't know how fast I was going because a turn was coming up and quickly glanced down and read the miles instead of km? Milton court btw


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Just pay it or roll the dice and gamble. Either youll win and keep riding or pay a crap load of money for the next x number of years + license suspension.
 
Re: Big *** ticket

This is why very few cops give breaks. He did you a huge favour and saved you a minimum of $2000 and you still want to fight it... smh
 
Re: Big *** ticket

Ok good answers thanks everyone.. Has anyone tried that option meeting with the prosecutor ? My bike is American so it reads miles not km also I only been legally riding since September so they'll think I'm new no offenses on my driving record .. So u think I can talk to this guy and get the price down atleast? And just say I didn't know how fast I was going because a turn was coming up and quickly glanced down and read the miles instead of km? Milton court btw


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Really? Your focus is to get the price down? For what you've done, I'd consider the $360 a bargain.
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time, or in this case, paying extra tax for making a poor decision.

Milton court.... was it local cop or OPP? To be honest, you can count on the officer showing up because it's not GTA.
 
Re: Big *** ticket

Fight it.

there is no difference in insurance eyes. 40 over is a major speeding, and 70 over is a major speeding. the officer has lowered it, they can take back up to 70 if you fight it, but they cannot introduce HTA172 anymore so you're free of that.

if you pay the 40 over, you'll be out thousands of $$$ through insurance. and if you're convicted of 70 over, then you're out the same Thousands through insurance plus a few hundred for trying to fight it. however, it's worth the few hundred to try and get rid of the charge
 
Re: Big *** ticket

its my understanding, and I'm willing to be corrected, they can reinstate the original charge and it can include HTA172 if the crown desired. I think I'd pay it and be thankful. You've a 50/50 shot.
 
Re: Big *** ticket

its my understanding, and I'm willing to be corrected, they can reinstate the original charge and it can include HTA172 if the crown desired. I think I'd pay it and be thankful. You've a 50/50 shot.

they can, but this hasn't fully been challenged out yet...it violates our charter rights to a fair trial by discouraging citizens from making use of that right.

if a cop can give you a "road-side break" but then it intimidates you into not fighting the ticket at all that isn't right.

just like HTA 172, the practice of amending the charge is pure ******** and something we need to work together to get rid of.

people suggesting you should "just pay" are asshats...speeding enforcement is for revenue generation, not safety...you should never feel bad about fighting a ticket.
 
Re: Big *** ticket

they can, but this hasn't fully been challenged out yet...it violates our charter rights to a fair trial by discouraging citizens from making use of that right.

if a cop can give you a "road-side break" but then it intimidates you into not fighting the ticket at all that isn't right.

just like HTA 172, the practice of amending the charge is pure ******** and something we need to work together to get rid of.

people suggesting you should "just pay" are asshats...speeding enforcement is for revenue generation, not safety...you should never feel bad about fighting a ticket.

If the cop gives you a roadside break and then "intimidates" you into not fighting it, then demand at roadside that the cop not give you that break.


Either way, this has been fully challenged right through to the court of appeal, starting with R. v Wanamaker Case #1581. Most subsequent challenges to amending up refer to the following.

Case Name:
R. v. Wanamaker


Between
Her Majesty the Queen, and
Steven Wanamaker


[2005] O.J. No. 1581


Ontario Court of Justice
Sudbury, Ontario
Y. Renaud J.


Oral judgment: January 25, 2005.
(15 paras.)
Criminal law — Appeals — Procedure — Information or indictment — Amendment — Transportation law — Motor vehicles — Offences — Speeding.

Appeal by Wanamaker from his conviction for speeding. Wanamaker was clocked traveling 113 km/h in an 80 km/h zone. The officer exercised his discretion to issue a ticket for traveling at 100 km/h. At trial, the judge granted the Crown leave to amend its certificate to allege that Wanakamer traveled at the speed at which he was clocked. Wanamaker was informed of the proposed amendment prior to trial and elected to proceed with his defence, notwithstanding the amendment. Wanamaker was convicted. He appealed on the basis that he would have paid the ticket as originally prepared had he known that he faced a higher penalty under the increased speed.

HELD: Appeal dismissed. Wanamaker was aware of the amendment and could have either entered a plea to the offence prior to the amendment, or sought an adjournment. Wanamaker chose to proceed and was thus precluded from arguing that he was treated unjustly or prejudiced in the course of his defence.

Statutes, Regulations and Rules Cited:
Provincial Offences Act, s. 34.
Charge: Speeding
Counsel:
F. Perron, for the prosecution/respondent
M. Grossi, for the defendatemnt/appellant
________________________________________
REASONS FOR JUDGMENT
¶ 1 Y. RENAUD J. (orally):— The defendant appeals his conviction for speeding, specifically that he travelled at one hundred and thirteen kilometres an hour in an eighty kilometre per hour zone.
¶ 2 The evidence indicates that the defendant was told by the officer, who pulled him over, that he was travelling at one hundred and thirteen kilometres per hour. The officer exercised some discretion and prepared the Certificate of Offence charging the defendant with speeding at the rate of one hundred kilometres per hour in an eighty kilometre per hour zone.
¶ 3 At the commencement of the proceedings on the day of trial, prior to the defendant having been arraigned, the prosecution advised the court that it would, during the course of trial, be seeking an amendment to the Certificate of Offence by increasing the alleged speed from one hundred kilometres per hour to one hundred and thirteen kilometres per hour. The defendant, who was present on the day of trial and represented by an agent, entered a plea of not guilty and proceeded with the trial.
¶ 4 Later on in the proceedings, just as the prosecution had advised to begin with, the prosecution sought the amendment to the alleged speed. The trial court heard argument on the requested amendment and determined that it was proper to grant the amendment to accord with the evidence received.
¶ 5 Though the trial justice does not so expressly state, it is sufficiently apparent from his reasons that the court took into account the important fact that the defendant had been alerted, prior to his plea, that the prosecution was intending to seek the amendment in question. The presiding justice noted that the defendant conducted his defence notwithstanding the expectation that the prosecution would be seeking the amendment.
¶ 6 The considerations that guide the trial court in deciding whether to grant an amendment to an information or certificate are stated in s. 34 of the Provincial Offences Act. The trial justice was obviously aware of these considerations since submissions were made to the court on this point.
¶ 7 Pursuant to the section, the question whether or not to grant the amendment is a question of law.
¶ 8 On this appeal, as well as at the trial itself, the agent for the defendant submits that had the defendant known that he would be facing a higher penalty, given the increased speed alleged, the defendant may well have opted to pay the ticket as originally prepared. One might also concede that if the defendant had known that the charge to be tried was more serious (given the increased speed being alleged), was more serious than that which was stated on the Certificate of Offence, different or greater efforts would have been made to defend the charge.
¶ 9 The difficulty for the appellant in this case is that the prosecution did inform the court, and in so doing alerted the defendant, that an amendment would be sought. It would have been open for the defendant, had he felt prejudiced or unjustly treated by this request, to ask for an adjournment to further consider his options, or indeed, to enter a plea to the certificate as it then read, prior to the amendment being granted. The defendant did neither and chose to proceed with the trial.
¶ 10 The court has.considered the case of R. v. Antunes, [2004] O.J. No. 4898, a decision of Justice Halikowski. In that case the trial court had granted the amendment, increasing the alleged speed of the defendant's vehicle, this amendment having been granted at the end of the trial, after the plea had been entered and after the evidence had been taken, without the defendant having been informed prior to the commencement of the trial that the amendment would be sought. Indeed, the defendant had not appeared at trial and was represented by an agent. The defendant called no evidence.
¶ 11 On appeal, the court rejected the appellant's argument that the amendment at the conclusion of the Crown's case ought not have been granted and that the amendment was prejudicial or unjust to the appellant. Justice Halikowski was not of the view that in the case before him the increased speed stated in the certificate would have influenced the line of defence and determined that the amendment caused the defendant no prejudice, citing the case of R. v. Irwin (1998), 38 O.R. (3d) 689, at page 698 where Justice Doherty emphasized that the accused cannot be found to have been prejudiced where he has had a full opportunity to meet the issues and where the conduct of the defence would have been the same, even if the amendment had not been made or if the charge had been earlier amended.
¶ 12 Each case, where an amendment is sought, turns on its own facts. In the present case, the court is not concerned with a situation where the unannounced amendment is sought at the conclusion of the Crown's case or at the conclusion of trial. In my view, granting an amendment, without forewarning to the defendant at the conclusion of trial, would more readily support an argument of injustice or prejudice. The court might offer that it would be more helpful if the prosecution were to have advised the defendant well before the trial date of its intention to seek the requested amendment to accord with the anticipated evidence of the officer. This would remove any possibility of inconvenience or additional delay or cost to the defendant, which may otherwise result from the amendment request being announced on the day of trial. This, I would consider, to be a counsel of perfection and not a consideration that would provide necessary merit for a successful appeal in the present case.
¶ 13 I am not called upon to support or depart from the reasoning of Justice Halikowski in Antunes. In the present case, the defendant knew, prior to the commencement of the trial, that the amendment would be sought. It would have been entirely open to the defendant to request an adjournment rather than risk proceeding to trial on the certificate that would inevitably be amended to accord with the evidence.
¶ 14 The defendant chose to proceed. He cannot now successfully complain that he was prejudiced in his defence or treated unjustly.
¶ 15 The appeal is dismissed.
Y. RENAUD J.
 
Re: Big *** ticket

people suggesting you should "just pay" are asshats...speeding enforcement is for revenue generation, not safety...

Heartfelt but wrong. The OP was going 130kmh in a 60 (almost certainly unsafe to rider and others) and was not nearly penalized to the full extent of the law (revenue reduced). Good on the cop for stopping the OP yet not crucifying. The intention was to provide a valuable lesson (and to reduce the likelihood of the charge being fought). Pay the fine and watch the speed.
 
Re: Big *** ticket

its my understanding, and I'm willing to be corrected, they can reinstate the original charge and it can include HTA172 if the crown desired. I think I'd pay it and be thankful. You've a 50/50 shot.


They can't. 50 over is NOT an automatic HTA 172. it's at the officer's discretion to claim stunting.
the ticket is now reduced from 70 over to 29 over, not from HTA 172 to 29 over.
if in court they choose to bring back original charge because he is fighting it, then it will just be the SPEEDING of 70 over.

If the officer had charge HTA172 then he can't give you a break. so in order to "give you a break" he charged you with speeding 70 over and reduced it to 29 over. he did simply to improve his conviction rate without trial.
or also likely that he lacks the evidence to prove your speed and this way doesn't have to go to court and lie under oath.

FIGHT THE TICKET!!! ALWAYS!
 
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Re: Big *** ticket

I am sorry to say that they can indeed raise the speed back to the originally clocked speed. R v Winlow
Sorry I do not have the citation. And, for all the reasons above, I agree that you should hire someone to fight it for you, or fight it yourself in a pinch. Good luck!
 
Re: Big *** ticket

They can't. 50 over is NOT an automatic HTA 172. it's at the officer's discretion to claim stunting.
the ticket is now reduced from 70 over to 29 over, not from HTA 172 to 29 over.
if in court they choose to bring back original charge because he is fighting it, then it will just be the SPEEDING of 70 over.

If the officer had charge HTA172 then he can't give you a break. so in order to "give you a break" he charged you with speeding 70 over and reduced it to 29 over. he did simply to improve his conviction rate without trial.
or also likely that he lacks the evidence to prove your speed and this way doesn't have to go to court and lie under oath.

FIGHT THE TICKET!!! ALWAYS!

They can apply to amend the charge to whatever the evidence supports. That has already been tested and supported by previous court rulings including an appeal's court ruling in R. v Wanamaker that sets the precedent for the lower courts to follow.

The evidence in this would be that he was doing 70 km over, and that evidence would support charges of S128 speeding and HTA172 stunt driving.

Assuming that he lacked evidence and that he issued a ticket for a lower speed so he wouldn't have to lie under oath is wishful thinking. Issuing a ticket for something that did not happen and lying under oath are pretty much the same thing. If he would do one, he wouldn't have much problem doing the other too.
 
Re: Big *** ticket

They can't. 50 over is NOT an automatic HTA 172. it's at the officer's discretion to claim stunting.

HTA 172 has this part to it, that removes the officers discretion. The use of the word shall is the key here. Technically, the officer could get in trouble for not laying the charge of stunt driving.

(5) Where a police officer believes on reasonable and probable grounds that a person is driving, or has driven, a motor vehicle on a highway in contravention of subsection (1), the officer shall,
(a) request that the person surrender his or her driver’s licence; and
(b) detain the motor vehicle that was being driven by the person until it is impounded under clause (7) (b). 2007, c. 13, s. 21.
 
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Re: Big *** ticket

Request an early resolution and see if the prosecutor will offer anything. If not then lick your wounds and count your blessings.
 

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