Another deadly crash

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Paul
If not why does everyone keep making assumptions that the bike was speeding?
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The eywitness said the "bike that made it through" was going at a horrendous speed.
Now no question having a 77 year old put in the situation did not help, nor did the rider help by riding the shoulder which was reported.

But as to speed....this says it all. That is not a 10 over on a city stret impact.

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Andrew99 • 2 hours ago I was driving a car that was east bound when this occurred west bound
within about 5 car lengths in front of us. The wife broke into tears. There
were two bikes traveling in the same direction. The one that made it through
was going at a horrendous clip. I cannot say how fast the bike that hit the car
was going but it looked like it had run into a brick wall.
Seeing the young lady curled up in the gutter is a sight I will never forget
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You can choose to beleive the eye witness or not but the damage to the car is pretty strong corroborating evidence.
Both riders dying before they reached the hospital speaks to a lot of energy.

But yeah - serious misfortune and the turning driver may well have contributed.

Speaking to a cop he said the most severe accidents occur when there is high delta of speed between the bulk of traffic and a vehicle.
Hell I almost got broadsided by a cop doing twice the limit without his cherries on at dusk.
I pulled out across traffic with plenty of room but this cop came out of the group of other headlights and had to swerve.
He pulled me over but did not ticket me - I said there was no way I could tell how fast he was going as he did not have his emergency lights on. The minute a judge asked how fast the cop was going was the time any ticket would go out the window....I suspect he knew that.

Anyways - sad loss...not a thing a parent ever wants to go through.
I worry about my 22 year old when he's out but he's shown himself to be responsible with the exception of some empty roads in PA.
I feel very sad for the girl's family. She trusted her friend, as it turns out, with her life. :(
 
RIP Rider. RIP passenger. Sorry for your loss mom.
conundrum said:
I know it's not a popular view here but I do agree with you -- When I did my full M through RTI last year (October 2013) about everyone in my group had only rode short distances in the city, and one guy was at his 5 year mark since the M1X course and had just bought a CBR125R online the week prior. When riding in formation, many had issues keeping up or with positioning, and virtually everyone had issues with ramps and getting up to speed on the highway.

Of the group I was in, the ones that went before me all passed, with the only guy still go to after the kid on the new-to-him 125R. Although I want to say I hope he passed, a big part of me hopes he didn't and got more training, as he kept stalling the bike and almost ran into the curb 9 times out of 10 when making or taking turns.
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I was out of the riding scene for about 10 years due to an auto accident and decided to take the RTI refresher course. There were some riders there that I hoped I would never meet on the road. Same goes with the riding basics m1. I have friends that took the course within the last 3 years and said its the easiest way to pass your test. As long as you don't drop the bike they pass you. all it cost is $400.00 + and even the worst rider will get thru. this has to stop. If there are bad riders in the class, Fail them. It could be your life they take next time.
 
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Looks like the old left-hand turn thing to me. Gramps doesn't see and starts turning, bike going too fast (probably trying to make the light), couldn't react and it's over in 1/1000th of a second.

Expect the car to turn and violate your right of way. Always be ready for it.
 
ChopinRockwood said:
Rip Rider. Sorry for your loss mom.
I was out of the riding scene for about 10 years due to an auto accident and decided to take the RTI refresher course. There were some riders there that I hoped I would never meet on the road. Same goes with the riding basics m1. I have friends that took the course within the last 3 years and said its the easiest way to pass your test. As long as you don't drop the bike they pass you. all it cost is $400.00 + and even the worst rider will get thru. this has to stop. If there are bad riders in the class, Fail them. It could be your life they take next time.
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I'm a small sample but I did my M2 with RTI in 2011 and ppl definitely failed. I just did my M with them and the 4 other guys in my riding group were all competent.
 
Roadghost said:
Looks like the old left-hand turn thing to me. Gramps doesn't see and starts turning, bike going too fast (probably trying to make the light), couldn't react and it's over in 1/1000th of a second.

Expect the car to turn and violate your right of way. Always be ready for it.
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There are no lights there columbo...
 
Roadghost said:
Looks like the old left-hand turn thing to me. Gramps doesn't see and starts turning, bike going too fast (probably trying to make the light), couldn't react and it's over in 1/1000th of a second.

Expect the car to turn and violate your right of way. Always be ready for it.
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Interesting thought; at what point or threshold does a right of way cease being one? Surely a considerable departure from a given speed limit negates that right, or at the very least absolves the person crossing your path. I had some braindead **** tard pass me on the 407 on Friday; probably doing well over 200 ( I was center lane, doing about 118 when he peeled my paint off), and due to his ridiculous closing speed, if I had made a lane change the outcome would have been very bad for him. I never heard or saw him until he went by, and yes, I do monitor my mirrors constantly.
Just a thought kids; speed may or may not be the cause of a crash, but it unequivocally has a say in whether or not you die, or get to brag about scars later in life. Don't be an ******, slow the **** down on the street and go to a track for fun.
 
Roadghost said:
Looks like the old left-hand turn thing to me. Gramps doesn't see and starts turning, bike going too fast (probably trying to make the light), couldn't react and it's over in 1/1000th of a second.

Expect the car to turn and violate your right of way. Always be ready for it.
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Roadghost said:
Does there have to be?
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Well if you're gonna make a claim that they were trying to make the light i think the fact that there were no lights does make a difference...
 
Rip, very sad all around.

My gf at the time and I did our m1/m2 together. She passed, barely.

She couldn't for the life of her make it down the street without stalling... Be afraid... be very afraid (of the licensing system, that is)
 
happycrappy said:
Interesting thought; at what point or threshold does a right of way cease being one? Surely a considerable departure from a given speed limit negates that right, or at the very least absolves the person crossing your path.
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In the fault determination rules, that threshold is 15 km/h above the posted speed limit. It is not often applied that stringently (generally, after the fact, the collision speed can't be determined *that* accurately), but it could be. If you are very substantially above the posted speed limit and above the general speed of the flow of traffic, and someone violates your right of way, expect to share a piece of the blame.

The collision reconstruction folks can establish speeds within some margin of uncertainty ("vehicle was travelling at least X but not more than Y") and they know what general traffic flow is, regardless of the speed limit.
 
Brian P said:
In the fault determination rules, that threshold is 15 km/h above the posted speed limit. It is not often applied that stringently (generally, after the fact, the collision speed can't be determined *that* accurately), but it could be. If you are very substantially above the posted speed limit and above the general speed of the flow of traffic, and someone violates your right of way, expect to share a piece of the blame.

The collision reconstruction folks can establish speeds within some margin of uncertainty ("vehicle was travelling at least X but not more than Y") and they know what general traffic flow is, regardless of the speed limit.
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You learn something new every day

If thats the case, i see a lot of people being in trouble in this city. Look around, everyone is doing 10-20km/h above the limit
 
Blueyedv said:
I am the mother of the motorcyle driver. I was notified by my 17 yr old son. I called the police to find out more and they could not confirm details. I got an "unofficial" notification at 5am, as the police said it was still under investigation. Did not get "official" confirmation of my son's death until 4pm the next afternoon. My 21 yr old son got to the scene and recognized the bike and helmet.

Positive or negative the comments may be, it is a tragedy for all involved (including witnesses). No one should have to experience a loss like this.
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I am so very sorry for your loss. My heart goes out to you. I am the mother of 3 boys. Two of which are old enough to drive/ride. My oldest is considering getting a bike as I have just recently. I have to be honest, it scares the life out of me. I can't imagine suffering such a tragic loss.

My deepest sympathy for you, your family and the family of his passenger.
 
Blueyedv said:
I am the mother of the motorcyle driver. I was notified by my 17 yr old son. I called the police to find out more and they could not confirm details. I got an "unofficial" notification at 5am, as the police said it was still under investigation. Did not get "official" confirmation of my son's death until 4pm the next afternoon. My 21 yr old son got to the scene and recognized the bike and helmet.

Positive or negative the comments may be, it is a tragedy for all involved (including witnesses). No one should have to experience a loss like this.
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I can't begin to tell you how sorry I am for your loss. I cannot imagine the pain it would cause me to lose my son, around the same age, who I spent my best years raising. It is small consolation that he died doing what he loved in the exuberance of youth. We have lost too many this year, may God rest their souls. Remember the best times with him, those are God's gift to you forever. Again, I am very sorry.
 
To the mom I am VERY sorry for your loss and likely the loss of one of your boys friends.

Chara: not sure if the posts you have made here about just looking for a back seat are just fun or your serious. If your serious then you NEED to consider that well could have been you on the back of a strangers bike. I am positive that passenger "felt safe" riding on the back.

Paul1000RR no one is "guessing" or "speculating" that the bike was speeding. It is clear from the eyewitness reports that the bike was doing well above the limit. He was obviously following another bike which was speeding too. the difference... a split second.. The eyewitness also said the bike was using the "shoulder of the road", (he likely meant the bus lane), to pass vehicles on the right. Also as MacDoc eluded to the damage to that car is significant, Does this make the cager not responsible for the accident?? Not at all he will carry the burden of this accident everyday for the rest of his life. But was he the only "responsible party" not by a LONG shot.

Grey Ghost: you asked how do we know the car wasn't doing 100km/h. MOST 77 year olds don't make turns at 100km/h... that would be our first clue.

As to the member who asked when does a right of way stop being a right of way... Simple answer is when it can cost you your life. When I was a copper we had a saying well that rider/driver was dead right. he had the right of way. but now he is just as dead as he was right. I ALWAYS assume a vehicle is going to invade my lane/area.

CharaXO You, in this thread has posted "it was a good ride" Well if you were the other bike then SHAME on you for not returning to the scene where your riding buddy and his passenger were killed. You said "you lost two good friends"
 
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Sad to hear.
Why do riders complain?
People are jacked up on caffeine and other "medication", relying on cars to drive themselves, using cellphones or doing other things while driving.
We already know a lot of ppl just can't drive. We also know a lot of ppl never did the driving test and bought a license.

Unless bikers get their crap together and start shutting down roads via protesting and demanding xyz then nothing will change and we will keep reading about these stories or worse being the story.
 
-D- said:
Sad to hear.
Why do riders complain?
People are jacked up on caffeine and other "medication", relying on cars to drive themselves, using cellphones or doing other things while driving.
We already know a lot of ppl just can't drive. We also know a lot of ppl never did the driving test and bought a license.

Unless bikers get their crap together and start shutting down roads via protesting and demanding xyz then nothing will change and we will keep reading about these stories or worse being the story.
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Shutting down the roads so we can ride however we want?

Most riders need to get their crap together and learn how to ride responsibly.
 
dricked said:
Shutting down the roads so we can ride however we want?

Most riders need to get their crap together and learn how to ride responsibly.
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Exactly. Thought I was alone in this thinking. Some of the riders on here must be absolutely perfect drivers when they're in their 'cage'. I'm waiting for the day when one of these riders, while in their car, is involved in an accident involving a motorcycle. Should be interesting reading the perspective then.
 
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