Roomie
Banned
Beat me too it. Sad what passes for a "car" these days.
$10k new car!!! - why are bike prices so high??
- Thread starter MacDoc
- Start date
Beat me too it. Sad what passes for a "car" these days.
That's why I posted the Elio earlier c/w glue sniffing reference. Conventional wisdom says you can't build a $7000 car in USA even with one wheel missing. Somebody please tell me I'm wrong.
How to lose money 101.
Todays lesson provided by Nissan Canada.
The absurd low price is purely for a manual transmission stripper model, with no frills. Few people buy manual's anymore, let alone stripped down models. So while the $9999 price looks good on paper, in reality, it won't fly with the mass consumer.
More mistakes, Nissan Canada is going this alone in importing, marketing, sales, certification, carrying parts etc. placing a further financial burden on them. Nissan USA is much smarter and wisely walked away and won't be carrying this thing.
The average price for a "proper" Micra, the way most people would buy one with Air, Auto and other niceties, is more in the $13-16k range.
Sorry, but for that price, this thing ain't it. And with the power of the internet today, buyers are much too savvy for these tactics.
For that price range, can get a decent Civic, with available dealer discounts, that will put you in the upper reaches of the Micras price range, and will do circles around the Micra in every category. To boot, a Top Safety Pick Plus vehicle that Aces all the crash tests. Something the Micra, and other tiny compacts can't claim.
IMHO, I wouldn't touch ANY micro car on the market as you will fair badly in any crash test. The Micra is just an entry level made-in-Mexico junker with poor fit and finish. The example I saw at the auto show, the hood was badly misaligned with the front fenders.
Have fun with this one Nissan Canada.
Todays lesson provided by Nissan Canada.
The absurd low price is purely for a manual transmission stripper model, with no frills. Few people buy manual's anymore, let alone stripped down models. So while the $9999 price looks good on paper, in reality, it won't fly with the mass consumer.
More mistakes, Nissan Canada is going this alone in importing, marketing, sales, certification, carrying parts etc. placing a further financial burden on them. Nissan USA is much smarter and wisely walked away and won't be carrying this thing.
The average price for a "proper" Micra, the way most people would buy one with Air, Auto and other niceties, is more in the $13-16k range.
Sorry, but for that price, this thing ain't it. And with the power of the internet today, buyers are much too savvy for these tactics.
For that price range, can get a decent Civic, with available dealer discounts, that will put you in the upper reaches of the Micras price range, and will do circles around the Micra in every category. To boot, a Top Safety Pick Plus vehicle that Aces all the crash tests. Something the Micra, and other tiny compacts can't claim.
IMHO, I wouldn't touch ANY micro car on the market as you will fair badly in any crash test. The Micra is just an entry level made-in-Mexico junker with poor fit and finish. The example I saw at the auto show, the hood was badly misaligned with the front fenders.
Have fun with this one Nissan Canada.
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sid_for_speed
Well-known member
Let me put it this way... you are comparing a car that may be considered essential to some to a bike that most consider "nice to have"...the prices reflect that...
here are the prices
Micra 1.6 S, MT - $9,998
Micra 1.6 S, 4AT - $13,298
Micra 1.6 SV, MT - $13,698
That said
The point of the thread is to see the same lower cost choices come available in motorcycles ( and to some degree they are arriving- the Yamaha Triples and the CB500 series are NOT cheaply built machines but are inexpensive ).
I have no issue with limited run models costing more if they command a price due to tech.....but the something like an entry level Ninja costing $5400 is ludicrous
( BTW the Burgman 650 Exec is over priced as well given it's had an 11 year history with few changes - BMW is trying to start a competitive downward price spiral with their GT650 ).
People pick the Execs up discounted ( often new ) in the $7-9k range which is where they should be given the long productin run.
I was shocked at the pricing of the 650 V-strom as well....nice bike but over $10k for a 650 twin pretty bare....c'mon. Is this Suzuki trying to emulate BMW pricing???
The KLR LISTS at $6990 with 5 months free interest and 4.9% financing and there are deals to be had.
Now that's attractive to get riders into the sport or riders moving up especially with financing.
In my view entry 250s to 400s should be $3-4k and with ABS
Then basic 500-700s in the 4-6k range also with ABS
I think it's coming and it will certainly help reduce some of the silly prices in the used category.
Also with modern manufacturing ....build to order and small runs are very viable.
When we picked up the brand new FZ8 for $6990, another dealer with same bike on the floor at $10,450 just wandered away muttering when we asked for a price match.
The fat can be squeezed out....we just gotta vote with our dollars..
People are willing too pay more for bikes and the market reflects that. The profit margins on bikes must be much bigger than cars......look at the extra components that cars come with.....several airbags that arent cheap, power locks, windows, AC. The design engineering teams are several times bigger on cars as well. 100's of engineers on car programs, 30 for a bike. Getting robbed on the bikes Im afraid.....Kawasaki Zx6 msrp is over $12 K, but some years the end of season price is $8K.
Exactly but I think that willingness to pay is ending.
There will always be those that want latest and greatest and will fork out, but to expand their business the mcycle manufacturers need to lure new riders with low costs, no more so than in Ontario where insurance is such a barrier.
I do think it's arriving and voices are heard - demo days are an excellent way to bend the manufacturer's ear about pricing
You look at the incredible acceleration of uptake on the CB500x ..160 pages on ADVRider alone....oops now up to 177
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=840842&page=177
Honda will be listening and seeing....and those machines are selling.
Yamaha triples are market busters too.
Keep the pressure on for value and we'll all win.
There will always be those that want latest and greatest and will fork out, but to expand their business the mcycle manufacturers need to lure new riders with low costs, no more so than in Ontario where insurance is such a barrier.
I do think it's arriving and voices are heard - demo days are an excellent way to bend the manufacturer's ear about pricing
You look at the incredible acceleration of uptake on the CB500x ..160 pages on ADVRider alone....oops now up to 177
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=840842&page=177
Honda will be listening and seeing....and those machines are selling.
Yamaha triples are market busters too.
Keep the pressure on for value and we'll all win.
Only up to a point. The tooling has to exist for whatever you want to build, and that costs money that has to be amortized over the number you build using that tooling. In Germany, you can "build to order" a VW Golf - US/Canadian distribution doesn't allow it - by picking and choosing options and colours with far more choices than what we are given here ... but it is still the same basic vehicle ... Motorcycles typically don't have that sort of "option" flexibility (there aren't any).
Just the dies for stamping the BIW must be orders of magnitude more expensive than the tooling for the bike. The material costs alone are 500% more for the car, and the labour hours would also be significantly more no?
Yep and really there is no reason to continually retool on a motorcycle as some of the long lived designs show.
I'd much rather a refined design over time than a new one.
How many complete retoolings were there on a CB250??? - maybe that's why the price is coming down as it's mature.
And the Ninja 250 was around as well.
Sure some bikes are done from the ground up...I was surprised to find that on the 2013 Fz8 rework but I think Yamaha was just working kinks out for the triples.
My point here is seeing the barriers to ownership and upgrades drop.
Less advertising and more value for money would be my preference, and longer periods between model changes.
I'd much rather a refined design over time than a new one.
How many complete retoolings were there on a CB250??? - maybe that's why the price is coming down as it's mature.
And the Ninja 250 was around as well.
Sure some bikes are done from the ground up...I was surprised to find that on the 2013 Fz8 rework but I think Yamaha was just working kinks out for the triples.
My point here is seeing the barriers to ownership and upgrades drop.
Less advertising and more value for money would be my preference, and longer periods between model changes.
MarcosSantiago
Well-known member
You are right about everything you wrote, except one thing (your suggestion that someone can get a '14 Civic with auto and air in the same price range than the Micra, $13-16k range).
Regardless of you being correct, the fact remains, a person can walk in into a Nissan dealer and order a brand new car for $10k. Yeah, it won't have A/C or auto, but most motorcycles don't have those either...
The point here is that motorcycles prices are getting out of control, and as the financial crisis fades away for some people, the market is willing to pay these inflated prices.
Back to the new scooter from Vespa as my best example of this issue, the scooter is the same price as a brand new car. How can a buyer rationalize the value there?
eljay
Well-known member
There's lots of cheap bikes on Alibaba, you can land containers full of 150s for less than a grand a piece from China. 99.99% of us wouldn't touch them. Neither will our insurers.
There's also the R&D that you are paying for. Brian is right, every bike on the road in NA comes nearly close to top end in quality (disputed by anecdote). The R&D on our bikes surrounds how to make make high performance cheap and still protect the brand and only mentally ill folks like us will buy them.
The R&D in low end car manufacturing surrounds how to make something roadworthy for as cheaply as possible, and there is always a 16 year old willing to buy it.
There's also the R&D that you are paying for. Brian is right, every bike on the road in NA comes nearly close to top end in quality (disputed by anecdote). The R&D on our bikes surrounds how to make make high performance cheap and still protect the brand and only mentally ill folks like us will buy them.
The R&D in low end car manufacturing surrounds how to make something roadworthy for as cheaply as possible, and there is always a 16 year old willing to buy it.
The worldwide production volume of a CBR600 (or practically any other up-market bike) is same-order-of-magnitude as the production volume of a Porsche Boxster - or less.
The only motorcycles built in mass-market huge automotive-like quantities are small single-cylinder Asian-market Honda Sonic, Wave, Airblade, etc, which are not sold here, but they are engineering cousins to CBR125 and Grom, and those are sold here, and those are pretty cheap. The Asian-market models are sold in higher volumes and are cheaper.
The only motorcycles built in mass-market huge automotive-like quantities are small single-cylinder Asian-market Honda Sonic, Wave, Airblade, etc, which are not sold here, but they are engineering cousins to CBR125 and Grom, and those are sold here, and those are pretty cheap. The Asian-market models are sold in higher volumes and are cheaper.
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I think you overstate volume as a factor.
CHeaper builds yes...
That was one thing the reviewers noted about the Yamaha triples....quality did not appear to be compromised despite a significant drop in price point which shows it can be and is being done....more for less money ...just as my business has always been.
As tech moves forward prices do not need to rise and in fact should fall....and I note ABS is now commonplace ..
Too much spent on marketing, over blown middle management, poor forecasting, greedy stealerships all impact final costs to the consumer and a motorcycle is a significant bit of money.
So far disintermediation has not really taken hold in the motorcycle venue tho it has in accessories.
The manufacturers will try to squeeze as much profit as possible out until consumers blink....consumers have blinked.
Kawi with the KLR650, Honda with the CB500s, Yamaha with the triples are on the correct track in my view - value for money with those models.
The other area to win business is with extended and cost effective warranties as Kia did to establish some cred in the market.
If you are going to go less expensive then that reassures buyers you stand behind the product.
Something like a 3 year warranty with included oil /filterchanges as is common on cars these days serves everyone well and the dealers get additional accessory biz.
CHeaper builds yes...
That was one thing the reviewers noted about the Yamaha triples....quality did not appear to be compromised despite a significant drop in price point which shows it can be and is being done....more for less money ...just as my business has always been.
As tech moves forward prices do not need to rise and in fact should fall....and I note ABS is now commonplace ..
Too much spent on marketing, over blown middle management, poor forecasting, greedy stealerships all impact final costs to the consumer and a motorcycle is a significant bit of money.
So far disintermediation has not really taken hold in the motorcycle venue tho it has in accessories.
The manufacturers will try to squeeze as much profit as possible out until consumers blink....consumers have blinked.
Kawi with the KLR650, Honda with the CB500s, Yamaha with the triples are on the correct track in my view - value for money with those models.
The other area to win business is with extended and cost effective warranties as Kia did to establish some cred in the market.
If you are going to go less expensive then that reassures buyers you stand behind the product.
Something like a 3 year warranty with included oil /filterchanges as is common on cars these days serves everyone well and the dealers get additional accessory biz.
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My $14,198 guesstimate was only off by $500!
