Justin Time

PrivatePilot said:

I'd venture to bet most of these handcannon toting manchildren we're seeing a lot of in the news right now in the USA would be screaming like a little girl and running to hide if they ever actually ended up in the sort of situation their armament is designed for.

These "militiamen" should go and join the army if they want to play GI Joe. They could go have kinds of fun travelling the world and shooting all sorts of neat weapons on the governments dime, and get paid on top of it..and actually benefit their country. But nah, that whole basic training thing and then having to listen to and follow orders is too hard. Easier to just play Elite Special Forces Commando on Instagram and Facebook instead.

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It's very easy to dismiss arguments like that when they're rife with name-calling and comments meant to demean others.
A common tactic of the left. When you can't effectively argue, resort to name calling.
It's lazy.
Frankly, you haven't as clue what anyone would do in any given situation.

I've spent lots of time in the US and contrary to the image you have of "these handcannon toting manchildren" most of the people I know who carry firearms for self defense are pretty regular folks. The main difference between them and the collective "us" is that they know the police/gov't can't protect them. There as here in Canada the police have no obligation to protect you.

You'd say they're "handcannon toting manchildren"... Some would say they're men and women who take the resposability of protecting themselves and their loved ones seriously.

Hack said:

You'd say they're "handcannon toting manchildren"... Some would say they're men and women who take the resposability of protecting themselves and their loved ones seriously.

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Have you SEEN some of the militia organizations in the USA?

These are not "just regular mom and pop" sorts who just happen to have guns. Many of these people, including many who are showing up at these protests dressed like GI Joe are parts of highly militarized outfits where they genuinely believe they are part of the "solution" to the government via paramilitary action.

Some are run in a sane fashion and have a lot of ex military people in them, and I'd feel safe having then in my neck of the woods.

Many of them are far and extreme right organizations full of crazy fundies who think the government needs to be overthrown and the USA needs to "return to it's roots" blah blah blah. I wouldn't feel safe being within 50km of these sort of groups.

And honestly, what does ANY person who owns weapons like this because they take the "responsibility of protecting themselves and their loved ones seriously" doing at these sorts of "storm the government" protests? Forgive me for not sharing your opinion, but the people showing up at these sorts of things are the GI Joe Instagram Special Forces crowd.

You really should read up more on some of the realities down there. As someone who used to travel the USA a lot and has family living there now I have perhaps a unique window into the world many may think that the media is "blowing out of proportion", but I assure you, is very real.

PrivatePilot said:

Have you SEEN some of the militia organizations in the USA?

These are not "just regular mom and pop" sorts who just happen to have guns. Many of these people, including many who are showing up at these protests dressed like GI Joe are parts of highly militarized outfits where they genuinely believe they are part of the "solution" to the government via paramilitary action.

Some are run in a sane fashion and have a lot of ex military people in them, and I'd feel safe having then in my neck of the woods.

Many of them are far and extreme right organizations full of crazy fundies who think the government needs to be overthrown and the USA needs to "return to it's roots" blah blah blah. I wouldn't feel safe being within 50km of these sort of groups.

And honestly, what does ANY person who owns weapons like this because they take the "responsibility of protecting themselves and their loved ones seriously" doing at these sorts of "storm the government" protests? Forgive me for not sharing your opinion, but the people showing up at these sorts of things are the GI Joe Instagram Special Forces crowd.

You really should read up more on some of the realities down there. As someone who used to travel the USA a lot and has family living there now I have perhaps a unique window into the world many may think that the media is "blowing out of proportion", but I assure you, is very real.

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meal team 6

PrivatePilot said:

Have you SEEN some of the militia organizations in the USA?

These are not "just regular mom and pop" sorts who just happen to have guns. Many of these people, including many who are showing up at these protests dressed like GI Joe are parts of highly militarized outfits where they genuinely believe they are part of the "solution" to the government via paramilitary action.

Some are run in a sane fashion and have a lot of ex military people in them, and I'd feel safe having then in my neck of the woods.

Many of them are far and extreme right organizations full of crazy fundies who think the government needs to be overthrown and the USA needs to "return to it's roots" blah blah blah. I wouldn't feel safe being within 50km of these sort of groups.

And honestly, what does ANY person who owns weapons like this because they take the "responsibility of protecting themselves and their loved ones seriously" doing at these sorts of "storm the government" protests? Forgive me for not sharing your opinion, but the people showing up at these sorts of things are the GI Joe Instagram Special Forces crowd.

You really should read up more on some of the realities down there. As someone who used to travel the USA a lot and has family living there now I have perhaps a unique window into the world many may think that the media is "blowing out of proportion", but I assure you, is very real.

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Tell us with a straight face, that the government here isn't just throwing a ******** of money at a hole in the wall, and possibly their relatives, telling us it will make things better, and hoping that some of it sticks. Otherwise, it's a useless argument. Almost anyone here who wants a gun, whether they are currently legal or not, can get a gun. Very few will get caught.

PrivatePilot said:

Have you SEEN some of the militia organizations in the USA?

These are not "just regular mom and pop" sorts who just happen to have guns. Many of these people, including many who are showing up at these protests dressed like GI Joe are parts of highly militarized outfits where they genuinely believe they are part of the "solution" to the government via paramilitary action.

Some are run in a sane fashion and have a lot of ex military people in them, and I'd feel safe having then in my neck of the woods.

Many of them are far and extreme right organizations full of crazy fundies who think the government needs to be overthrown and the USA needs to "return to it's roots" blah blah blah. I wouldn't feel safe being within 50km of these sort of groups.

And honestly, what does ANY person who owns weapons like this because they take the "responsibility of protecting themselves and their loved ones seriously" doing at these sorts of "storm the government" protests? Forgive me for not sharing your opinion, but the people showing up at these sorts of things are the GI Joe Instagram Special Forces crowd.

You really should read up more on some of the realities down there. As someone who used to travel the USA a lot and has family living there now I have perhaps a unique window into the world many may think that the media is "blowing out of proportion", but I assure you, is very real.

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Fear monger much? All motorcyclists become Hells Angels? You are Entertaining !

Baggsy said:

Tell us with a straight face, that the government here isn't just throwing a ******** of money at a hole in the wall, and possibly their relatives, telling us it will make things better, and hoping that some of it sticks. Otherwise, it's a useless argument. Almost anyone here who wants a gun, whether they are currently legal or not, can get a gun. Very few will get caught.

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I noticed nobody replied to my post way earlier in this thread about legal Canadian straw purchasers funnelling legal guns into the illegal market. Not every gun ending up on the streets came from the USA. Many were bought by legal purchasers here and then sold at a tidy profit to someone who has no business owning said gun. The illegal market has actually discovered it's a far easier source versus the drastically higher risks of tryign to bring them across the border. Just find a straw buyer looking to make some easy cash, have him get his RPAL, perfectly legally (and easily) buy some high demand weapons, have them mysteriously "disappear", and hey, lots and lots of spare cash magically appears.

I have no problem with those sorts of firearms that are in demand on the street being removed from the market so that this can't happen to begin with. Will the trade across the border increase again to try to make up for it? Almost certainly, but there's far more enforcement at the border than there is with straw purchasers. The stats are out there.

I also noticed that nobody replied to my question asking what practical use many of these same weapons hold in the marketplace beyond being boner generators on the range.

I know the same argument made over and over again is that Canadian gun owners are all responsible and this is punishing them through no fault of their own. Thing is, not all legal Canadian gun owners are responsible. Many are slimeballs themselves who are padding their pockets buying these guns (assault weapons and otherwise) perfectly legally and then funnelling them to the illegal market. There's not much market for hunting long guns (not of much use to criminals), but there IS lots of markets for plenty of the others - the boner generators.

PrivatePilot said:

I noticed nobody replied to my post way earlier in this thread about legal Canadian straw purchasers funnelling legal guns into the illegal market. Not every gun ending up on the streets came from the USA. Many were bought by legal purchasers here and then sold at a tidy profit to someone who has no business owning said gun. The illegal market has actually discovered it's a far easier source versus the drastically higher risks of tryign to bring them across the border. Just find a straw buyer looking to make some easy cash, have him get his RPAL, perfectly legally (and easily) buy some high demand weapons, have them mysteriously "disappear", and hey, lots and lots of spare cash magically appears.

I have no problem with those sorts of firearms that are in demand on the street being removed from the market so that this can't happen to begin with. Will the trade across the border increase again to try to make up for it? Almost certainly, but there's far more enforcement at the border than there is with straw purchasers. The stats are out there.

I also noticed that nobody replied to my question asking what practical use many of these same weapons hold in the marketplace beyond being boner generators on the range.

I know the same argument made over and over again is that Canadian gun owners are all responsible and this is punishing them through no fault of their own. Thing is, not all legal Canadian gun owners are responsible. Many are slimeballs themselves who are padding their pockets buying these guns (assault weapons and otherwise) perfectly legally and then funnelling them to the illegal market. There's not much market for hunting long guns (not of much use to criminals), but there IS lots of markets for plenty of the others - the boner generators.

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And the very small percentage doing straw purchases deserve a very very harsh punishment.

PrivatePilot said:

I noticed nobody replied to my post way earlier in this thread about legal Canadian straw purchasers funnelling legal guns into the illegal market. Not every gun ending up on the streets came from the USA. Many were bought by legal purchasers here and then sold at a tidy profit to someone who has no business owning said gun. The illegal market has actually discovered it's a far easier source versus the drastically higher risks of tryign to bring them across the border. Just find a straw buyer looking to make some easy cash, have him get his RPAL, perfectly legally (and easily) buy some high demand weapons, have them mysteriously "disappear", and hey, lots and lots of spare cash magically appears.

I have no problem with those sorts of firearms that are in demand on the street being removed from the market so that this can't happen to begin with. Will the trade across the border increase again to try to make up for it? Almost certainly, but there's far more enforcement at the border than there is with straw purchasers. The stats are out there.

I also noticed that nobody replied to my question asking what practical use many of these same weapons hold in the marketplace beyond being boner generators on the range.

I know the same argument made over and over again is that Canadian gun owners are all responsible and this is punishing them through no fault of their own. Thing is, not all legal Canadian gun owners are responsible. Many are slimeballs themselves who are padding their pockets buying these guns (assault weapons and otherwise) perfectly legally and then funnelling them to the illegal market. There's not much market for hunting long guns (not of much use to criminals), but there IS lots of markets for plenty of the others - the boner generators.

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Can you cite any factual evidence to support this?

I have never seen media or police provide ANY numbers to validate these claims.

I've heard the police chief, and blair makes these claims from time to time, but how many times have you seen news reports of a legal owner being arrested and charged with straw purchasing?

Surely were it that large a problem then the Liberal media would be flogging each arrest in all our faces with pure glee to say a big fat "told ya so!"...

PrivatePilot said:

Have you SEEN some of the militia organizations in the USA?

These are not "just regular mom and pop" sorts who just happen to have guns. Many of these people, including many who are showing up at these protests dressed like GI Joe are parts of highly militarized outfits where they genuinely believe they are part of the "solution" to the government via paramilitary action.

Some are run in a sane fashion and have a lot of ex military people in them, and I'd feel safe having then in my neck of the woods.

Many of them are far and extreme right organizations full of crazy fundies who think the government needs to be overthrown and the USA needs to "return to it's roots" blah blah blah. I wouldn't feel safe being within 50km of these sort of groups.

And honestly, what does ANY person who owns weapons like this because they take the "responsibility of protecting themselves and their loved ones seriously" doing at these sorts of "storm the government" protests? Forgive me for not sharing your opinion, but the people showing up at these sorts of things are the GI Joe Instagram Special Forces crowd.

You really should read up more on some of the realities down there. As someone who used to travel the USA a lot and has family living there now I have perhaps a unique window into the world many may think that the media is "blowing out of proportion", but I assure you, is very real.

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I spent a good part of my adult life living in the USA, I never found the gun thing to be an issue. I had firearms, and like the vast majority of my neighbours never felt a need to carry or show force with my guns.

There are militias, the rights are ingrained in the US constitution, as is the right to bear arms. Is this outdated? Of course it is -- there is no conceivable situation where a private militia could ever challenge the US gov't today - they would be crushed in an instant if they attempted to use force for anything. Are there right wing crazies? Yes -- however I can't recall a militia ever doing anything that would warrant taking their guns.

Guns in the hands of criminals and mentally unstable is the real issue -- not so much the weapon they carry. I'm sure a regular Canadian Tire rifle could do handle the carnage you saw down east in the hands of the right crazy person.

MRR11.6 said:

Fear monger much? All motorcyclists become Hells Angels? You are Entertaining !

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Truth hurts?

Google the Oath Keepers and read up.

GreyGhost said:

And the very small percentage doing straw purchases deserve a very very harsh punishment.

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For sure. But much the same as how people are quick to say "They'll never get all the guns at the border", they'll never get all the straw sellers, either. And finding more straw sellers is going to be dead easy...all you need is someone without a criminal record or any red flags that can get an RPAL, and have them be willing to look the other way for an envelope full of cash.

PrivatePilot said:

Many are slimeballs themselves who are padding their pockets buying these guns (assault weapons and otherwise) perfectly legally and then funnelling them to the illegal market. There's not much market for hunting long guns (not of much use to criminals), but there IS lots of markets for plenty of the others - the boner generators.

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It's all baloney, the government doesn't have a shred of intent to going after the root cause in this situation or they wouldn't be spending 755% more of our rock bottom dollars to buy guns back instead of ramping up enforcement and investigation at the borders.

Let me ask you, off the cuff; what actual difference in gun violence in Canada would you project this change makes?

edit: rephrased my question.

PrivatePilot said:

I noticed nobody replied to my post way earlier in this thread about legal Canadian straw purchasers funnelling legal guns into the illegal market. Not every gun ending up on the streets came from the USA. Many were bought by legal purchasers here and then sold at a tidy profit to someone who has no business owning said gun. The illegal market has actually discovered it's a far easier source versus the drastically higher risks of tryign to bring them across the border.

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Riiight. Here's how you tell that's a big fat lie: The vast majority of crime guns are handguns. Handguns in Canada are registered. Licensed gun owners are tracked and the police know how many guns they own. If someone is buying a lot of handguns the police know, no way around it. So if there are all these Canadian straw purchasers, why can you count on one hand the number of straw purchasers who were busted in Canada? The reality is that 80-95% of all crime guns are traced back to the United States. The rest either have the numbers ground off, so they are untraceable or they are stolen. The police and the gun control lobby simply took the latter 20% and said if they aren't from the United States they must be from Canada, with little proof of that assertion.

It is far, far easier to smuggle guns from the United States. What's more, it is very, very lucrative. You can buy a US gun for $400 and sell it for $3000 in Canada.

Mad Mike said:

-- however I can't recall a militia ever doing anything that would warrant taking their guns.

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this is cool with you? I guess I'm a nutjob if i don't think i should be able to carry a gun into a public place like government offices.

PrivatePilot said:

Have you SEEN some of the militia organizations in the USA?

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Lol... Yes.

PrivatePilot said:

These are not "just regular mom and pop" sorts who just happen to have guns. Many of these people, including many who are showing up at these protests dressed like GI Joe are parts of highly militarized outfits where they genuinely believe they are part of the "solution" to the government via paramilitary action.

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...And you don't think we have some of the same types of people here in Canada?

PrivatePilot said:

Some are run in a sane fashion and have a lot of ex military people in them, and I'd feel safe having then in my neck of the woods.

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So... as long as they meet your standard of "sane"... You're okay with it.

PrivatePilot said:

Many of them are far and extreme right organizations full of crazy fundies who think the government needs to be overthrown and the USA needs to "return to it's roots" blah blah blah.

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Well... They're free be right/left/middle, and again with the "crazy"... Unless they've been clinically diagnosed how can you with any authority accuse people of being crazy..?

PrivatePilot said:

I wouldn't feel safe being within 50km of these sort of groups.

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No one cares about your feelings. Your feelings don't trump other peoples right to do these things

PrivatePilot said:

And honestly, what does ANY person who owns weapons like this because they take the "responsibility of protecting themselves and their loved ones seriously" doing at these sorts of "storm the government" protests?

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'Really no ones business who people choose to associate with. You say storm the gov't protests, but... There never seems to be ANY violence at these events. Unlike leftist/ANTIFA type protests that seem to always feature riots/vandalism and such.

PrivatePilot said:

Forgive me for not sharing your opinion, but the people showing up at these sorts of things are the GI Joe Instagram Special Forces crowd.

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You don't need my forgiveness... And again.. You have no idea who these people are or whether or not they have Instagram accounts.

PrivatePilot said:

You really should read up more on some of the realities down there.

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Thanks for the advice... who should I read..?

PrivatePilot said:

I have perhaps a unique window into the world many may think that the media is "blowing out of proportion", but I assure you, is very real.

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It is certainly unique, I will give you that... Lol
Well actually it's not very unique or oringinal.

800over said:

'Swastikas and nooses': governor slams 'racism' of Michigan lockdown protest

Gretchen Whitmer says heavily armed men and Confederate flags at state capitol ‘depicted some of the worst racism and awful parts of our history’

www.theguardian.com

this is cool with you? I guess I'm a nutjob if i don't think i should be able to carry a gun into a public place like government offices.

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What makes a gov't office sacred?

PrivatePilot said:

I noticed nobody replied to my post way earlier in this thread about legal Canadian straw purchasers funnelling legal guns into the illegal market. Not every gun ending up on the streets came from the USA. Many were bought by legal purchasers here and then sold at a tidy profit to someone who has no business owning said gun. The illegal market has actually discovered it's a far easier source versus the drastically higher risks of tryign to bring them across the border. Just find a straw buyer looking to make some easy cash, have him get his RPAL, perfectly legally (and easily) buy some high demand weapons, have them mysteriously "disappear", and hey, lots and lots of spare cash magically appears.

I have no problem with those sorts of firearms that are in demand on the street being removed from the market so that this can't happen to begin with. Will the trade across the border increase again to try to make up for it? Almost certainly, but there's far more enforcement at the border than there is with straw purchasers. The stats are out there.

I also noticed that nobody replied to my question asking what practical use many of these same weapons hold in the marketplace beyond being boner generators on the range.

I know the same argument made over and over again is that Canadian gun owners are all responsible and this is punishing them through no fault of their own. Thing is, not all legal Canadian gun owners are responsible. Many are slimeballs themselves who are padding their pockets buying these guns (assault weapons and otherwise) perfectly legally and then funnelling them to the illegal market. There's not much market for hunting long guns (not of much use to criminals), but there IS lots of markets for plenty of the others - the boner generators.

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I'm not sure straw purchasing goes on in any meaningful way - there isn't money to be made and the risks are very high.

First, it's not that hard or expensive to acquire a handgun if you're determined to get one. Drop into OH or PA -- no restrictions on buying guns -- $240USD for a 9mm Ruger semi and you're set! Forget to declare it's hiding under your seat when you come back and you too can be an illegal gun owner.

Next - it's super risky. Dealing with a registered weapon that has it's owner and serial number on file with the gov't makes you a big target once that gun gets involved in anything nefarious.

Mad Mike said:

What makes a gov't office sacred?

I'm not sure straw purchasing goes on in any meaningful way - there isn't money to be made and the risks are very high.

First, it's not that hard or expensive to acquire a handgun if you're determined to get one. Drop into OH or PA -- no restrictions on buying guns -- $240USD for a 9mm Ruger semi and you're set! Forget to declare it's hiding under your seat when you come back and you too can be an illegal gun owner.

Next - it's super risky. Dealing with a registered weapon that has it's owner and serial number on file with the gov't makes you a big target once that gun gets involved in anything nefarious.

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Unless it has changed in the recent past no one can take a gun into an American federal building, probably cops excepted. A friend in Virginia had his wife get a carry permit because if he had to mail a package she would be in possession.

If a person has a criminal record they can't go shopping for a gun in PA but an associate without a record yet can. To go through the Canadian system would be stupid for the return.

When the long gun registry was put in place it killed (technically replaced) the "green books" that required gun shops to keep a strong record of who purchased the non-restricted long guns, these records could be acquired by the police with a proper court procedures to investigate who the original purchaser was. When the long gun registry was killed the green books were not mandated in the same way. Some shops keep very good records, others do the minimum. This leaves a straw purchasing hole that really does not carry much real risk for the perp as the current tracking is done very poorly so the odds of being caught after the fact are slim (just need to know the right shop). Short of a sting operation... So I wouldn't expect a lot of convictions.

Obviously not a big issue for hand guns...as the rules are different here.

The tracking of gun origins seized by police shows that a significant percentage were purchased in Canada (depending on the source 20% to almost 50%). The questions are were they stolen and not reported, stolen and reported or straw purchased?

As far as I can tell the new legislation does nothing to close this except to reduce the number of specific models that can fall through this gaping hole.

As for cross border, they should of put a hook in new NAFTA to allow cross border enforcement to go after the gun shop that originally sold the weapon (and I bet they knew, money, money no risk), they could of fooled Trumpy by telling him it was to stop big bad legal Canadian pot from getting into the US (they can go after the sellers here). Unless the US takes a very active part at the source in preventing guns purchased there from crossing into Canada there is not much we can do IMO. The border is long adn the volume of people crossing is high...

Or just require all firearms to be entirely painted hot florescent pink, even glow in the dark. If you have a legit reason for owning it the colour of the tool should not matter. If you need it to be a big man, well pink will be a problem.

I'll answer the easy question first: I don't hunt. I shoot targets and clays, I also have an archery set I use from time to time.
I ran one 3gun competition and was hoping to do more, look into it, its a great time. This ban kills the industry.
It's all about cost, not about looking cool. ARs are the cheapest, reliable semi-auto that shoot 556/223 with good aftermarket support.
Same reason people used to buy civics. Anything non-restricted or not an AR can be almost double the price in Canada.
If there was a cheaper semi-auto that shot the same round, I would have gotten that instead.
You can hunt with it, there are a ton of hunting rifles that use the same round. Reason no one does is because the rifle is restricted and you legally aren't allowed to.

the Long Gun Registry was made to track all the non-restricted guns that would have fallen through the holes. In the end I believe it cost over $2 billion and was used to solve zero crimes, the guns recovered in shootings and crimes weren't on the list.

Again, there may be straw purchases but as others have stated, handguns make up a huge bulk of shootings and they are heavily monitored. The only articles of straw purchase busts are from 2011. If there have been any big ones since then, it would've made news guaranteed.

And if the whole point is to close the gap, then it only makes sense to prohibit handguns which are the most likely to be used in crime. They prohibited .50 cals, AR-15s, 22s and rocket launchers. There are 100s of thousands of these out, when is the last time there was a shooting with any of these in Canada? If you just look at mass shootings, the last one with an 'assault style' rifle is Polytech with an mini-14, which has remained non-restricted until this ban. That's was 30+ years with countless mini14s and the cheaper China knock-offs and how many shootings with this gun has there been?

The 20-50% Canadian sourced firearms stat is a bogus: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/gun-crime-statistics-1.4779702
You also only need to look at what they classify as a crime firearm: they count fake guns, airsoft, bb guns, paintball guns IN THE VICINITY of a crime as firearms used in crime. So basically when they say crime guns sourced in Canada, it also counts assault by paintball gun bought at Canadian tire.

Even if you believe what they say about straw purchases and Canadian sourced crime guns. This ban is a non-evidence based decision, it bans guns that make up the minority of shootings, RCMP is not doing their job with the current system that already tracks every single legal handgun and AR.

backmarkerducati said:

As for cross border, they should of put a hook in new NAFTA to allow cross border enforcement to go after the gun shop that originally sold the weapon (and I bet they knew, money, money no risk), they could of fooled Trumpy by telling him it was to stop big bad legal Canadian pot from getting into the US (they can go after the sellers here). Unless the US takes a very active part at the source in preventing guns purchased there from crossing into Canada there is not much we can do IMO. The border is long adn the volume of people crossing is high...

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US gun stores can't sell guns in the non-residents. Sure there might be a few disreputable FFL's kicking around, but by and large most stores won't do it. The guns smuggled into Canada were likely already straw purchased in the US, then sold to the Canadian smuggler who brings it across the border. Private gun sales in the US don't require background checks, at least in most states, so that's how that happens. Everyone involved in each step of the process gets a cut of the pie.

That said I personally believe most of these guns are being brought in by natives smuggling them via the native reserve near Cornwall. That reserve straddles the border and isn't subject to border regulations like regular citizens are. Add to the fact that enforcing laws on the books against natives is considered a "no-no" in Canada, and there you have it. Things like this are probably just the tip of the iceberg.