Harley-Davidson Profit Falls As Slide in Motorcycle Sales Continues

[Mad Mike]

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Honda sold around 17 million motorcycles worldwide in the 2016 fiscal year.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/267277/worldwide-motorcycle-sales-of-honda/

didn't find much for worldwide motorcycle market share 2016 on a quick search. But the Indian and Asian markets are huge....big cruisers don't fit there that well.

That is a chart of HD's share of the Heavy market -- they have less than Honda in the overall US market.

 

[LePhillou]

That's what's hurting them, trying to be what they're not. Stop trying to remold the brand, it isn't working. Remold the generation.

If I make chairs, I'm not going to attract running shoe customers to my chair company by trying to make a running shoe. Instead, I need to convince the running shoe buyer to take off their shoes, and sit in my damn chair lol.

Tell that to kodak

 

[kiwi]

Harley's heyday was selling to boomers
they're dying off and becoming too old to ride
next up are the Gen Xers - me
most Xers are okay with HD's and appreciate the quality/heritage foundation
but we are a small cohort, not gonna sustain sales, and we're getting up there in age too
next up are millennials
liberals, environmentally friendly, peace loving...the hipster crowd
they are not at all interested in the bad-boy image bikes their dads ride
while there's nothing wrong with the bikes
HD's lifestyle branding is going to have to change if they want millennials to come through the door

they started trying this back in 2014...

https://kennethott.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/harley-davidson-targets-hipsters/

 

[J_F]

they started trying this back in 2014...

https://kennethott.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/harley-davidson-targets-hipsters/

interesting read, but flawed conclusions, like myself and others stated earlier in the thread
if the Street series 500 and 750 budget cruisers is HD's attempt to attract millennials
they have missed the mark.....a glance at them and you can see they are not the genuine article

hipsters, if they like anything, it's to appear genuine

so they don't have the right bikes
and they don't have the right lifestyle branding strategy
tough position to be in as their core demographic stops buying

this is HD branding, a middle aged dirt bag dude, talking down to his teenaged wife
this may make Harvey Weinstein want to buy a Harley
ain't gonna work well with socially conscious millenials

View attachment 39079

 

[Matt Rain]

interesting read, but flawed conclusions, like myself and others stated earlier in the thread
if the Street series 500 and 750 budget cruisers is HD's attempt to attract millennials
they have missed the mark.....a glance at them and you can see they are not the genuine article

hipsters, if they like anything, it's to appear genuine

so they don't have the right bikes
and they don't have the right lifestyle branding strategy
tough position to be in as their core demographic stops buying

this is HD branding, a middle aged dirt bag dude, talking down to his teenaged wife
this may make Harvey Weinstein want to buy a Harley
ain't gonna work well with socially conscious millenials

View attachment 39079

+1

If I may add, a big part of the issue for HD is the (no offense) hillbilly crowd. I want to like Harleys, but then I pull into a dealership lot and I'm made to feel completely unwelcome because I'm on an old Japanese beater. Coupla weeks ago a sales dude at Browns/Jacox openly mocked my full face and A* jacket. Both are understated and plain black. Like, come on.

 

[LePhillou]

+1

If I may add, a big part of the issue for HD is the (no offense) hillbilly crowd. I want to like Harleys, but then I pull into a dealership lot and I'm made to feel completely unwelcome because I'm on an old Japanese beater. Coupla weeks ago a sales dude at Browns/Jacox openly mocked my full face and A* jacket. Both are understated and plain black. Like, come on.

"I'm sorry, i like to keep my face asphalt free if i fall"

 

[GreyGhost]

"I'm sorry, i like to keep my face asphalt free if i fall"

I'm more concerned with keeping the asphalt face free. Subtractive machining processes are harder to fix than additive processes.

As with MR, we have all had bad experiences at HD dealers when we don't fit the mold. Unless they change attitudes throughout the entire chain, they are doomed.

Based on my experience, much of their profit comes from dumb-*** people that don't think rationally. As time goes on, the number of those people being in jobs that generate the disposable income required to buy a HD without comparison shopping will continue shrinking. I watched one guy walk into a dealer and buy a night-rod and accessories at full list (by the time he walked out, he had signed up for over $50,000 in payments on a $17,000 bike). He had his buddy with him and between them they decided that if he worked 16 hours of overtime every weekend for the next 8 years he could afford the loan payments. I have no idea when he was planning on riding the bike if he was working every weekend for the next 8 years.

 

[TwistedKestrel]

I'm more concerned with keeping the asphalt face free. Subtractive machining processes are harder to fix than additive processes.

As with MR, we have all had bad experiences at HD dealers when we don't fit the mold. Unless they change attitudes throughout the entire chain, they are doomed.

Based on my experience, much of their profit comes from dumb-*** people that don't think rationally. As time goes on, the number of those people being in jobs that generate the disposable income required to buy a HD without comparison shopping will continue shrinking. I watched one guy walk into a dealer and buy a night-rod and accessories at full list (by the time he walked out, he had signed up for over $50,000 in payments on a $17,000 bike). He had his buddy with him and between them they decided that if he worked 16 hours of overtime every weekend for the next 8 years he could afford the loan payments. I have no idea when he was planning on riding the bike if he was working every weekend for the next 8 years.

The upshot is that they weren't great at math, and he could have paid it off in less than half that time, assuming he didn't leap off a bridge first

 

[JTR]

interesting read, but flawed conclusions, like myself and others stated earlier in the thread
if the Street series 500 and 750 budget cruisers is HD's attempt to attract millennials
they have missed the mark.....a glance at them and you can see they are not the genuine article

hipsters, if they like anything, it's to appear genuine

so they don't have the right bikes
and they don't have the right lifestyle branding strategy
tough position to be in as their core demographic stops buying

this is HD branding, a middle aged dirt bag dude, talking down to his teenaged wife
this may make Harvey Weinstein want to buy a Harley
ain't gonna work well with socially conscious millenials

View attachment 39079

So basically, you're agreeing that HD would be wasting their time in attempting to pander to your crowd, and they should just do what they do best. Yeah that's what I was just saying up there^ ... Except I left out the part where all of u who like harleys are nothin but wifebeating, sister banging white trash. That's cool tho

 

[J_F]

So basically, you're agreeing that HD would be wasting their time in attempting to pander to your crowd, and they should just do what they do best. Yeah that's what I was just saying up there^ ... Except I left out the part where all of u who like harleys are nothin but wifebeating, sister banging white trash. That's cool tho

no, I'm not saying anything of the kind, and you know nothing of me, nor I of you

 

[Mad Mike]

No motorcycle company is going to be betting the farm on hipsters, that's a very narrow niche that can be targetted by dressing a model to their tastes. The real chalenge is making a product that ticks as many of the boxes that new buyers are looking for. HD has a good grip on style, marketing it's heritage, and in the heavy market. What they don't have a good grip on is cost of ownership, performance, and a decent range of models for urban and new riders. They also have another marketing problem as I see it -- the 750 and 500 range has little appeal to those who are historically brand loyal. In fact it's looked down upon by that crowd, which radiates somewhat of a negative image to new buyers who hear chuckles and 'that's not a real Harley' when they pull up to a Chrome Hortons for a coffee.

Maybe Harley needs to acquire a competitor to strengthen it's mix. Hmmm... I wonder how the KTM lineup would look with a HD branding and few chrome accents?

 

[BigEvilDoer]

Personally, I'm wondering if HD isn't like the old RIM/Blackberry....
Overconfident that their niche will carry them through 'cause it was at one point, untouchable.
Along comes the passing of time / technology marching on, and RIM/Blackberry went pretty much kaput due to their failure to move on.

HD, reminds me of this - I mean, how many years can you release pretty much the exact same thing (i.e. "Classic") but change a few bobbins and lipstick and call them new?

 

[pfbmgd]

Just saw the 2018 HD line up . It looks great and HD will sell every bike they make . The 500 and 750 not sure who they are for .

 

[bigpoppa]

tbh I think the euro's have done a better job in this niche, with the scramblers and ducati, and the new bonneville/thruxtons from Triumph

they are also priced much better, despite possession 'character' and 'premium'

 

[crankcall]

so a direct comparison would be Indian. Up 16% in growth this yr and growing. Ok price on a Scout and comparable on bigger machines. And projected increases.

Heritage, 'american' made, cool styling and authentic.

sure any "new" brand will see early yrs of growth, but this seems to have legs.

 

[nakkers]

Indian has the right formula. The have modern liquid cooled, decent power “entry” level bikes with the Scout line up. And then they have their big air cooled touring rigs for the older retirees that have the money and the time to ride.

They have the same merits as HD. Big, classic, heavy. But they are works of art as well.

If they had 50% of the classic touring models, they wouldn’t have as much cool factor.

But, they have new dealers set up everywhere in the USA and their price point is lower than HD.


HD can’t keep pricing their machines like they are the only game in town.

I know many are assembled by Americans unionized people. That does cost a lot. And they don’t use a lot of plastic compared to other makes.

They need to purge more than the Dyna line up and sharpen their focus and they will do well.

Personally, I’m enjoying the new models and like that fact others think the “old” models are outdated and coming down in price in the used market.

A nice Road King with the 103” and a few farkles is right up my ally. And a VRod muscle would be a nice around town.

Probably end up with a Triumph Thunderbird or possibly even a Rocket. Not practical and obtainable. Don’t see them everyday and when I do, I just keep wanting them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[J_F]

well said about the Indian
funny how Polaris could not make a go of it with Victory
but Indian s thriving, and effectively killed Victory off

 

[bigpoppa]

agreed about indians, they are priced appropriately, even the beginner models have performance

And the new bobber looks sexy af

 

[J_F]

yup, 60 degree vee, single pin crank, less vibes than a 45
liquid cooled, DOHC, 4 valves...hanging onto heritage
but with modern improvements

 

[JTR]

No motorcycle company is going to be betting the farm on hipsters, that's a very narrow niche that can be targetted by dressing a model to their tastes. The real chalenge is making a product that ticks as many of the boxes that new buyers are looking for. HD has a good grip on style, marketing it's heritage, and in the heavy market. What they don't have a good grip on is cost of ownership, performance, and a decent range of models for urban and new riders. They also have another marketing problem as I see it -- the 750 and 500 range has little appeal to those who are historically brand loyal. In fact it's looked down upon by that crowd, which radiates somewhat of a negative image to new buyers who hear chuckles and 'that's not a real Harley' when they pull up to a Chrome Hortons for a coffee.

Maybe Harley needs to acquire a competitor to strengthen it's mix. Hmmm... I wonder how the KTM lineup would look with a HD branding and few chrome accents?

You are on to something here, harley fans see the street series as honda rebel wannabes and that's what they are if we're honest. The nice thing is, they used to say sporties were chick bikes, and now the streets make the sporties look better lol. As far as KTM, it would make HD look really bad, considering their start to fame was in dirt racing, buying and rebadging a brand best known for their dirt bikes might make HD look weak. However HD is back into the racing scene right? What if they released a road legal version of their hooligan or flat track bikes, if they did it at a reasonable price I think that could be something people would be into. They started by taking their road bikes to the dirt tracks, now they're going full circle and bringing the flat track bike back to the road.

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