Ocasional rough start, sometimes slow to get going and other related questions

[Daakuryu]

Forum Sponsor

2012 Kawasaki 250

I've been riding for about a month now, just got over the 1000 km mark this week (it was at 700 km when I got it.) so my bike is now officially broken in. Even went ahead and changed my oil, oil filter and O rings last night.

Once in a while I will start up the bike and without even touching the throttle the bike will act as if I opened it too much while the engine is cold and shut off; It will do so unless I open the throttle a little bit while starting it or put the choke on before starting it. It's not all the time, just once in a while but could it be an indication of something?

I do let it warm up before I start to ride.

Another thing that occurs once in a while while riding and this one is likely entirely my fault but I'd like to know what I am doing wrong; Is that from a full stop sometimes it takes it a moment to get moving again. I give it gas, let go of the clutch smoothly; I'm usually close to the friction point even before I need to get going since I've gotten used to where it is now but the bike takes a bit to actually start moving and from the sound of the engine it sounds like it's closer to the 1-2 line than the 4-5 it was when I started giving gas.

Again this is only happening occasionally, most of the time I do the exact same thing or at least it seems to me I'm doing the same thing and the bike moves forward smooth as silk.

Which brings me to other side questions;

Where should the bike be when idling? sometimes it's in the 1-2 range but other times it's in the 3-4 range.

According to the owners manual by the time I'm at 40 km/h I should already be in 6th gear... I don't think I've gone past 4th gear yet and that has been at 60 km/h. (ok, sometimes accidentally 80 but when I notice that I slow down so don't tell the cops.) Haven't done any highway yet as I just got upgraded to M2 last Saturday. Am I possibly harming the bike by staying in lower gears? In 4th barely moving the throttle a little bit has me going past 60 relatively easily so hitting 6th makes me wonder just how little throttle movement it's going to take go from 60 to plaid.

 

[SLaP]

Another thing that occurs once in a while while riding and this one is likely entirely my fault but I'd like to know what I am doing wrong; Is that from a full stop sometimes it takes it a moment to get moving again. I give it gas, let go of the clutch smoothly; I'm usually close to the friction point even before I need to get going since I've gotten used to where it is now but the bike takes a bit to actually start moving and from the sound of the engine it sounds like it's closer to the 1-2 line than the 4-5 it was when I started giving gas.

Again this is only happening occasionally, most of the time I do the exact same thing or at least it seems to me I'm doing the same thing and the bike moves forward smooth as silk.

You are probably not in first gear

Where should the bike be when idling? sometimes it's in the 1-2 range but other times it's in the 3-4 range.

~1300 rpm

According to the owners manual by the time I'm at 40 km/h I should already be in 6th gear.

Where does it say that?

 

[Daakuryu]

You are probably not in first gear

I am fairly certain I am in first, I always double check when I'm stopped and I can usually tell since I can push down a lot on the shifter when it's not in first and that usually means a bit of dicking around to finally get it to go down to first when not moving, also I sometimes go to neutral while at a light so I can let go of the handlebars and stretch a bit. Plus from the little experience I have when I'm not in first the bike just stalls instead of starting slow.



I'll triple check to make sure.

~1300 rpm

Thanks, just saw that in the manual too so I'll try and do the adjustment when I get home

Where does it say that?

Page 55 of the owners manual

 

[Julz]

40 km on 6th already? How do you even get the bike moving at such high gear? Save the 6th for highway, 3rd gear should be fine. As for idle, I left mine at 1.5-1.7.

It's "opening" too much because your choke is on fully most likely but that's normal with the 250. To even start it cold the choke has to be fully engage other wise it will not start at all unless the engine is already warm.

 

[Daakuryu]

40 km on 6th already? How do you even get the bike moving at such high gear? Save the 6th for highway, 3rd gear should be fine. As for idle, I left mine at 1.5-1.7.

It's "opening" too much because your choke is on fully most likely but that's normal with the 250. To even start it cold the choke has to be fully engage other wise it will not start at all unless the engine is already warm.

Not sure why the book says 40 km in 6th but I posted a picture of the page it says that on in my reply to Slap.

For the starting I may have explained myself wrong, whenever I start the bike the choke is completely off; normally it goes to idle and then I turn the choke all the way on and let it sit like that for a bit, maybe rev the engine a few times help it along.

In those occasional situations I do exactly the same; the bike starts, goes to idle of a fraction of a second and then dies, sometimes I can even see the needle go up to 2 and then back down to 0, so at that point I have to put the choke on first and try starting it again.

Also this is always from a cold start that this happens, either when I start it up to go to work in the morning, or to go to lunch or back home from work.

 

[Julz]

Not sure why the book says 40 km in 6th but I posted a picture of the page it says that on in my reply to Slap.

For the starting I may have explained myself wrong, whenever I start the bike the choke is completely off; normally it goes to idle and then I turn the choke all the way on and let it sit like that for a bit, maybe rev the engine a few times help it along.

In those occasional situations I do exactly the same; the bike starts, goes to idle of a fraction of a second and then dies, sometimes I can even see the needle go up to 2 and then back down to 0, so at that point I have to put the choke on first and try starting it again.

Also this is always from a cold start that this happens, either when I start it up to go to work in the morning, or to go to lunch or back home from work.

It is very unlikely the bike will start when cold when the choke is off. Even if it does it will die eventually especially if you try to give it some gas. The bike will idle to I think maybe 5-6k rpm from what I remember and you just have to adjust it accordingly while it warms up. Best way to deal with is is to ride it and adjust the choke as it warms up other wise you'll be waiting for a long time until you can turn off the choke fully.

 

[defect_9]

^^ what he said. start the bike with the choke on full. it may need a slight blip to get up to speed but it should idle up to about 4 when the choke is full on. let it warm up a bit and slowly reduce the choke as you get a feel for when the engine is warm. if you cut the choke too soon, it will idle rough and die. if you leave it on too long, not much harm i dont think, its just burning more gas. also if you leave it on when riding, you will notice the engine is 'choked' and it will not rev as easily or have as much power. maybe this is what you are getting with your starts from stoplights.
may be something sticky in your choke?

 

[eljay]

Open the choke before starting. It will start to rev after starting, mine can shoot up to as high as 5k. I ease it back to just under 2k. It will continue to move up when the choke is still partially open. Keep closing to keep it under 2k. At some point closing the choke should put it right at 1300 idle.
To adjust your idle, wait until it is fully warmed up and choke is closed. There is a little black dial under the left side fairing. Adjust this to get your idle to about 1300 or just under. You should be set right there.
I shift from 1st to 2nd at about 40, 2nd to 3rd around 60, 3rd to 4th above 80, then go by feel from there for how much torque I want. That's assuming hard acceleration. I tend to keep the RPM up around 10k when downtown just to have more torque to get out of the frequent sticky situations that retard drivers around me generate. For just cruising go around 5 or 6k. It's all by feel. The bike won't cry until you hit the rev limiter anyway.

 

[StunnaV]

All of the problems you have listed are common for ninja 250r's on a cold start. Also, the problem where you feel as if it takes a little more gas than usual to get moving from a full stop is usually because the engine is still cold and you may need to ride with choke on for a bit until rev's are normal (1500-1700ish RPM)with choke closed. This normally happens to me on the colder mornings.

For cold starts, I usually have the choke open just enough to keep the rev under 2000. I remember my dealership telling me to keep revs idling at a max of 2000 when choke is open. What I do is slowly adjust the choke to keep rev under 2k until the bike is able to idle normally with choke fully closed.

Overall these problems are nothing to worry about but are just normal everyday issues with a carb engine.

 

[Bermuda]

Once in a while I will start up the bike and without even touching the throttle the bike will act as if I opened it too much while the engine is cold and shut off; It will do so unless I open the throttle a little bit while starting it or put the choke on before starting it.

I do let it warm up before I start to ride.

Another thing that occurs once in a while while riding and this one is likely entirely my fault but I'd like to know what I am doing wrong; Is that from a full stop sometimes it takes it a moment to get moving again. I give it gas, let go of the clutch smoothly; I'm usually close to the friction point even before I need to get going since I've gotten used to where it is now but the bike takes a bit to actually start moving and from the sound of the engine it sounds like it's closer to the 1-2 line than the 4-5 it was when I started giving gas.


Which brings me to other side questions;

Where should the bike be when idling? sometimes it's in the 1-2 range but other times it's in the 3-4 range.

Based on this information, I would say you are running lean (and perhaps quite a bit). The air/fuel ratio is off, and there is an abundance of air. These are typical symptoms of that, especially when the bike is cold (air is dense, more for the same volume, exaggerating the problem). This is also why it struggles on start without the choke.

As well, the inconsistent idle is another indicator. Cut the throttle and observe the tach drop - it doesn't settle where it should and sits high, almost like you are holding the throttle open. Lastly, your take-off from a stop also indicates a lean mixture. There is a bit of a stall before the throttle kicks in, the RPMs drop, then it moves.

These 250's are notoriously lean out-of-the-box, and there are a few different methods for relieving this. The cheapest and most common is the "washer mod", with the most expensive and extensive (and likely beneficial) being a full intake/exhaust swap (new air filter, jetting, exhaust). I've been around this block with my 250 so many times it hurts

Also, adjusting the idle using the available idle screw and with a warm bike is definitely the way to go, however an exceptionally lean bike will not find the right idle in any case. If you find yourself tweaking that setting everytime you stop at a light because it just won't settle, you are certainly running too lean.

How dirty are you willing to get? This isn't stuff that is out of reach for new riders like us, however it can be overwhelming if you're just not interested.

 

[Daakuryu]

Based on this information, I would say you are running lean (and perhaps quite a bit). The air/fuel ratio is off, and there is an abundance of air. These are typical symptoms of that, especially when the bike is cold (air is dense, more for the same volume, exaggerating the problem). This is also why it struggles on start without the choke.

As well, the inconsistent idle is another indicator. Cut the throttle and observe the tach drop - it doesn't settle where it should and sits high, almost like you are holding the throttle open. Lastly, your take-off from a stop also indicates a lean mixture. There is a bit of a stall before the throttle kicks in, the RPMs drop, then it moves.

These 250's are notoriously lean out-of-the-box, and there are a few different methods for relieving this. The cheapest and most common is the "washer mod", with the most expensive and extensive (and likely beneficial) being a full intake/exhaust swap (new air filter, jetting, exhaust). I've been around this block with my 250 so many times it hurts

Also, adjusting the idle using the available idle screw and with a warm bike is definitely the way to go, however an exceptionally lean bike will not find the right idle in any case. If you find yourself tweaking that setting everytime you stop at a light because it just won't settle, you are certainly running too lean.

How dirty are you willing to get? This isn't stuff that is out of reach for new riders like us, however it can be overwhelming if you're just not interested.

I'll start with the idle rpm adjustment and decide where to go from there.

Not sure how dirty I want to get, I'm more of a computer and electronics guy so for example I'll be changing my front turn signals to proton LED lights, getting rid of the back turn signals and replacing my stop light with an integrated LED turn signal and also adding a USB plug to the bike and that stuff should be easy as pie for me once the fairing is off.

But motors, carbs and all the other various bits and bobs that are mechanical in nature I just look at and go "If I take this apart I am 99.9% sure I am putting it back together backwards even with an instruction manual in my hands and a mechanic standing right next to me telling me what to do."

 

[bboySushi]

Don't give it throttle hard when your'e trying to 'warm up' the bike. If it dies after a hard throttle, it is way too much and you will just be flooding your engine with gas. Choke should always be on when starting. Even on a regular day, 12-16C, my girlfriend's R6 won't start if the choke isn't on.

IF you're seeing inconsistent gas flow, maybe try some seafoam/carb cleaner and let it go through your system, might help though your bike is pretty new. But who knows, maybe it sat for a long time with some crappy gas from some no name gas station.

 

[bobjohnson]

The Kawi 250 is jetted notoriously lean from the factory. Its pretty normal that on a stock bike, you wont be able to properly ride it for a few minutes until it warms up. The solution is to drill out the caps on your pilot screws, and turn them out a quarter turn. If you search for "Kawasaki Ninja 250 hard starting" you will find hundreds of walk throughs on how to do this. Other people swap out the pilots for something more reasonable.

The owners manual will give you ridiculously low shift speeds. My car says the same thing, that I should be in like 4th gear at 40kmh. Obviously this doesnt work in reality. Just shift where ever it "feels" right, but before redline.

 

[Daakuryu]

Don't give it throttle hard when your'e trying to 'warm up' the bike. If it dies after a hard throttle, it is way too much and you will just be flooding your engine with gas. Choke should always be on when starting. Even on a regular day, 12-16C, my girlfriend's R6 won't start if the choke isn't on.

IF you're seeing inconsistent gas flow, maybe try some seafoam/carb cleaner and let it go through your system, might help though your bike is pretty new. But who knows, maybe it sat for a long time with some crappy gas from some no name gas station.

Well, Like I said in the original post I got it when it was at 700 km, and according to the sales guy at GP the guy didn't even ride it to the store he brought it in on a truck so my guess is he rode it for a while found out it wasn't for him and then stored it for the winter.

I'll definitely try the seafoam, have to use it on a full tank or at any point?

The Kawi 250 is jetted notoriously lean from the factory. Its pretty normal that on a stock bike, you wont be able to properly ride it for a few minutes until it warms up. The solution is to drill out the caps on your pilot screws, and turn them out a quarter turn. If you search for "Kawasaki Ninja 250 hard starting" you will find hundreds of walk throughs on how to do this. Other people swap out the pilots for something more reasonable.

The owners manual will give you ridiculously low shift speeds. My car says the same thing, that I should be in like 4th gear at 40kmh. Obviously this doesnt work in reality. Just shift where ever it "feels" right, but before redline.

Yeah, not sure I want to drill into anything.

So far I've been shifting in increments of 20, not sure why.

Took a quick vid once I got home, this is Idle, on neutral, choke off, hand off throttle

[video=youtube;Wat5p5rrYH0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wat5p5rrYH0[/video]

 

[bobjohnson]

Doesnt really matter if you want to, that is the solution. You can pay someone else to do it I guess.

 

[LoneRonin]

You need to turn the idle screw and it set it to normal.

I distinctly remember the salesman showing me the idle screw and telling me to turn the idle down after I had broken it in a bit...

 

[Daakuryu]

Huzzah!

After the warmup and adjustment


After getting to work (early for a change )



Although the ride to work this morning was not as long as the ride home yesterday, I'm happy that it stayed stable.

The going from a stop or light and starting slow seemed to occur less too though that could be because I encountered less stop and go traffic and less red lights too. One thing I did notice yesterday is that when I felt it do a slow start giving it more gas seemed to correct the issue so definitely going to try and seafoam it.

Well see what happens on a longer ride; if it doesn't rain I may take my first highway trek to Whitby this afternoon.

I probably still have to tweak the rpm a little bit but right now it seems to "vibrate" around 1300 -1400

Forum Sponsor