Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle? | Page 97 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?

Brian P said:
The other manufacturers STILL want public fast-charging to be someone else's problem.
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And that's a mixed bag.

There's chargers out there. Lots of them, actually. Checkout plugshare.com and you'll be surprised.

BUT, the network is fragmented, and in some cases, a mess. Today, we were reminded of that - my wife went out to Yorkdale mall for a few hours. They have EV chargers in their parking lot, but at $2 per hour (to a max of $5) it made ZERO sense to actually use them vs just continuing on and using gas instead. She was there for about 2 hours, so the cost would have been $4.25 or so after tax. On a slower charging car like the Volt (which these flat rate chargers don't take into consideration), and given the temps right now and high HVAC load given todays temps, that might have yielded perhaps 20KM of EV range. Given the car only burns about 5L/100KM on gas, that same 20KM would burn about 1L of gas (~$1.25) in range extender mode.

So it would actually have cost us $3.00 MORE to bother charging.

Even someone with a Bolt charging at L2 (at twice the rate the Volt is capable of) would only pickup about 50-60KM in equal conditions for that $4.25. Again, 50KM in ICE mode on the Volt (or just about any fuel efficient car) would cost you LESS than that.

This kind of stupidity needs to stop if people are going to actually take EV's seriously. I know charging stations need to make a profit, but taking $0.15/hour of electricity and selling it for $2.00 (an over 6x markup) negates the entire purpose, and only someone who desperately needs that charge to make it home (IE, the Leaf/Spark owners) are going to actually use those chargers..unless they don't realize how much of a ripoff they actually are.
 
On the flipside, there's no shortage of FREE chargers out there either. This was me yesterday (on the left) at Oshawa Hospital. Zero cost, 4 hour limit, and in the 2 hours I was there getting my 10 week shoulder surgery followup, I was able to get nearly a full recharge from the half battery I'd used running around in the AM and then actually driving to the hospital.

hospitalcharger.jpg
 
PrivatePilot said:
BUT, the network is fragmented, and in some cases, a mess. Today, we were reminded of that - my wife went out to Yorkdale mall for a few hours. They have EV chargers in their parking lot, but at $2 per hour (to a max of $5) it made ZERO sense to actually use them vs just continuing on and using gas instead. She was there for about 2 hours, so the cost would have been $4.25 or so after tax. On a slower charging car like the Volt (which these flat rate chargers don't take into consideration), and given the temps right now and high HVAC load given todays temps, that might have yielded perhaps 20KM of EV range. Given the car only burns about 5L/100KM on gas, that same 20KM would burn about 1L of gas (~$1.25) in range extender mode.

So it would actually have cost us $3.00 MORE to bother charging.
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sorry, I laughed just a little bit. charging people to charge the cars? (pun intended)

after electrical car novelty wears off and mass adoption begins, I won't be surprised if more malls and companies adopt a pay per use to charge to assure turn over, and "quality" assurance and to recoup their initial costs. We widely accept that we pay for water bottles, wifi, Air for our tires, and parking... why not pay for car charging too?

I'd stick to a proper Hybrid vehicle for now, till all the charging nonsense gets sorted out, electric cars become more mainstream, and and we get more choices in the electric vehicle market..

hey look, its the 2019 Honda Insight hybrid..... http://www.motortrend.ca/en/news/2019-honda-insight-goes-mainstream/
 
Re: Kia

PrivatePilot said:
Oh PUH LEEZE. Are we really going to revisit this BS again?

I just passed the first 1000KM on our second Volt. My fuel economy was 0.3L/100KM. The only reason it was even that high was because I had to use some gas in range extender mode driving home from the dealership in Newmarket.

Please show me ANY hybrid on the face of the planet that can achieve that. I'd like to buy 2 of them to replace our Volts.

Yes, for people who drive a lot SOME hybrids may achieve better overall fuel economy than the first gen Volt can once you surpass the magic number of around 140KM or whatever it was tested to be. On the gen2 with it's even better economy and much larger EV range, that magic number is something like 500KM.

Again, statistics are pretty clear that 95% of vehicles do about 60KM a day or less, which not coincidentally, was what the Gen1 Volt was built to achieve, and the Gen2 Volt handily exceeds.

But lets keep going with your alternate universe theories.
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Jerking your chain one could also say 5% of the time you might not make it home.

The problem is with averages. I do about 20,000 km a year or less than 60 a day ON AVERAGE but some days I do zero and others 500 plus. The rate of technical change is so rapid it's hard to guarantee what's going to be out there five years from now so as much as I like the Bolt having an ICE backup feels better. Once the charging station situation is so well established that one can take it for granted hybrid is the only one that works for me.

Btw what happens to trunk space? Old lead acid electrics had huge batteries. L-ions not so much and on a pure EV no gas tank radiator etc.
 
Re: Kia

nobbie48 said:
Jerking your chain one could also say 5% of the time you might not make it home.

The problem is with averages. I do about 20,000 km a year or less than 60 a day ON AVERAGE but some days I do zero and others 500 plus. The rate of technical change is so rapid it's hard to guarantee what's going to be out there five years from now so as much as I like the Bolt having an ICE backup feels better. Once the charging station situation is so well established that one can take it for granted hybrid is the only one that works for me.

Btw what happens to trunk space? Old lead acid electrics had huge batteries. L-ions not so much and on a pure EV no gas tank radiator etc.
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There's a place in the market for a hybrid or an electric with range-extender to account for those long trips with questionable charging station availability.

I'm waiting for charging stations to become more prevalent, too. (My own criteria is that all the OnRoute service centers need to have them. I don't know why these weren't among the first places to get them.)

As far as trunk space, it depends whether the vehicle was designed to be electric from the outset or was added on. Ford hybrids have considerable trunk-space compromises. The Bolt has none because the batteries are under the floor. Tesla was designed as an EV from the outset and if anything, they have more flexible storage than comparable combustion-engine vehicles have ... the "frunk", and on a Model S there's an option for third-row seats (only for children, but that's better than "nothing" which is what other comparable size and shape vehicles have).
 
SunnY S said:
sorry, I laughed just a little bit. charging people to charge the cars? (pun intended)

after electrical car novelty wears off and mass adoption begins, I won't be surprised if more malls and companies adopt a pay per use to charge to assure turn over, and "quality" assurance and to recoup their initial costs. We widely accept that we pay for water bottles, wifi, Air for our tires, and parking... why not pay for car charging too?

I'd stick to a proper Hybrid vehicle for now, till all the charging nonsense gets sorted out, electric cars become more mainstream, and and we get more choices in the electric vehicle market..

hey look, its the 2019 Honda Insight hybrid..... http://www.motortrend.ca/en/news/2019-honda-insight-goes-mainstream/
Click to expand...

Pay for Wifi? Where?
 
Re: Kia

nobbie48 said:
The rate of technical change is so rapid it's hard to guarantee what's going to be out there five years from now so as much as I like the Bolt having an ICE backup feels better. Once the charging station situation is so well established that one can take it for granted hybrid is the only one that works for me.

.
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Exactly! Let the early adopters take the lumps and bumps and aggravations along the way until things become more established.

Even GM knows the Volt isn't that great. It's always been a slow seller and they are planning on cancelling it.

proper hybrids 'for now', and in the near future real electric cars like the Bolt make more sense, and we have a great crop of nicer electric machines on the horizon.
 
What is the minimum amount of driving required to make the EV switch?
Wife finally agreed that leasing the company vehicle is not really a need. She drives to the GO train and some nights there's the gym or groceries. Monday to Friday driving is under 100km /week. Weekends there's a choice between her car or my car.
Full lease, maint, ins, cost is $500/mo plus gas.
Is there a premium for EV insurance?
 
empty said:
Is there a premium for EV insurance?
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Depends on the insurance company, but most do give EV discounts. Mine does and it was substantial.

100km per week?! Yeah that's easily doable for an EV.
 
EV insurance is typically cheaper. My rate went down going from a 2005 Hemi Magnum to my 2011 Volt.

100KM/week is doable in just about *any* EV. You could even consider a well loved older Leaf or Spark for that matter strictly for in-town pure EV usage, or if you want the ability to go further when you need to without any range worries, a Volt, of course.
 
I don't think his question is whether it's doable but whether it's cost-effective given the price premium of a plug-in. But there are too many variables to be able to say x km per year will recoup that premium in gas savings. He has to do the math for himself.
 
fastar1 said:
I don't think his question is whether it's doable but whether it's cost-effective given the price premium of a plug-in. But there are too many variables to be able to say x km per year will recoup that premium in gas savings. He has to do the math for himself.
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Indeed, I guess it really depends on what the purchase budget is, considering new vs used, lease vs buy, etc.

Yes, operating cost will be under $10/month in electricity for an EV vs perhaps $40 in gas for your typical 6-7L/100KM econobox, but at a $30/month savings its a harder argument to make unless he's just interested in EV's to begin with and the extra cost is irrelevant.
 
Currently:
8000km/yr
Averaging 12L/100km from Jeep doing short drive
Annual gas: 960L x $1.20/L= $1152 ($96/mo)
Current annual lease vehicle cost: $6000
Total annual cost to have Jeep is about $7000

Looks like potential annual gas savings could be about $1000.

So what can I get and operate with $6000 annually?

Edit: wife also mentioned getting a Civic. So gas cost diff. there would only be about $500/yr.
 
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Do you want brand new, lease, buy outright, used? If used, how many years old & mileage you comfortable with?

If you’re open to used, $15-$18K outright will put you in a decent Gen1 used Volt, 2012-2014 (depending on options and mileage) era with probably under 100,000KM on it (so 60,000KM minimum or 2-4 years of full Voltec warranty left) and your annual operating costs will be basically...$10 a month in electricity. Oil change about every 2 years. A bit of gas once a year during the “Engine Miantenance Mode” it’ll demand at least once every 12 months if you don’t use the engine much/enough.
 
empty said:
Currently:
8000km/yr
Averaging 12L/100km from Jeep doing short drive
Annual gas: 960L x $1.20/L= $1152 ($96/mo)
Current annual lease vehicle cost: $6000
Total annual cost to have Jeep is about $7000

Looks like potential annual gas savings could be about $1000.

So what can I get and operate with $6000 annually?

Edit: wife also mentioned getting a Civic. So gas cost diff. there would only be about $500/yr.
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This where I run aground. At $1000 a year what I would save would take 10 years to pay the premium price of an EV. Add in the occasional range issue and it doesn't work for me.

A used vehicle has to be seen in an apples to apples comparison. Used Volt vs Used Civic etc. Whats resale like on a 10 year old Civic vs Volt / Bolt?

"If you’re open to used, $15-$18K outright will put you in a decent Gen1 used Volt, 2012-2014"

About the same as a new Hyundai.

I love the idea of blowing bye-bye kisses to the people at the pumps but can't make it work for me.

I asked a long haul trucker if the money was good and he said it wasn't but since all you do is drive and sleep in the bunk you don't spend what you make.

Maybe the EV is a bit the same. You don't go out as much because the car is on charge.
 
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empty said:
Currently:
8000km/yr
Averaging 12L/100km from Jeep doing short drive
Annual gas: 960L x $1.20/L= $1152 ($96/mo)
Current annual lease vehicle cost: $6000
Total annual cost to have Jeep is about $7000

Looks like potential annual gas savings could be about $1000.

So what can I get and operate with $6000 annually?

Edit: wife also mentioned getting a Civic. So gas cost diff. there would only be about $500/yr.
Click to expand...

nobbie48 said:
This where I run aground. At $1000 a year what I would save would take 10 years to pay the premium price of an EV. Add in the occasional range issue and it doesn't work for me.

A used vehicle has to be seen in an apples to apples comparison. Used Volt vs Used Civic etc. Whats resale like on a 10 year old Civic vs Volt / Bolt?

"If you’re open to used, $15-$18K outright will put you in a decent Gen1 used Volt, 2012-2014"

About the same as a new Hyundai.

I love the idea of blowing bye-bye kisses to the people at the pumps but can't make it work for me.

I asked a long haul trucker if the money was good and he said it wasn't but since all you do is drive and sleep in the bunk you don't spend what you make.

Maybe the EV is a bit the same. You don't go out as much because the car is on charge.
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Don't forget about added costs and risks of going with a used Volt.


-electriclan costs of $1000 to $1500 to wire a home charger

-2012 Volt is going on 6 years old, running out, or expired warranty? wear and tear? battery degradation? potential battery replacement costs? need tires?
 
SunnY S said:
Don't forget about added costs and risks of going with a used Volt.


-electriclan costs of $1000 to $1500 to wire a home charger

-2012 Volt is going on 6 years old, running out, or expired warranty? wear and tear? battery degradation? potential battery replacement costs? need tires?
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So when you sell or trade your Volt / Bolt for something else you have to pay an electrician a couple of hundred dollars to remove the old charger and put it in the trunk of the car for the next guy. You could do it yourself but I think that calls for permit from ESA, $80-90.

If you buy another EV you pay an electrician to hook up the new charger.

I think the EV's are showing their potential but the math still isn't working. Guinea pigs are needed to work the bugs out of the system.

Buying an EV costs about $25,000 more than a similar ICE. The buyer picks up about $11,000 of that and us tax payers pay the other $14,000. How long can this go on?

Is the $14,000 taxable income?

In a Ponzi scheme bad math and logistics eventually expose the truth. If the EV math doesn't prove itself the negative feedback could doom EV's like so many lead into gold / water into gas cons.
 
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nobbie48 said:
Maybe the EV is a bit the same. You don't go out as much because the car is on charge.
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We go out more. The Bolt always has enough for local trips, even after driving to and from work. We don't think twice about jumping in and going.

nobbie48 said:
So when you sell or trade your Volt / Bolt for something else you have to pay an electrician a couple of hundred dollars to remove the old charger and put it in the trunk of the car for the next guy. You could do it yourself but I think that calls for permit from ESA, $80-90.

If you buy another EV you pay an electrician to hook up the new charger.
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Simple, buy an EVSE that uses a standard plug, not hardwired. Also, buy an EVSE that is rated to the maximum charge rate at the time of purchase and it will likely last through a couple of cars. My Juicebox Pro is capable of a higher rate than the Bolt can use, so if I change to something else I have some extra capacity.
 
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