2011 Moto GP?

[ZX600]

Sick is an understatement, the kid on another level! I hope everyone saw the slow mo's of him drifting that Honda last sunday:shock:

Yea I don't like the kid but after the last two races I have to take back my comments about his "lack of talent compared to", he rode the **** out of that honda in cataluya and in silverstone he rode hard on the rain, much respect

 

[murf]

It's always possible to drive beyond the grip of the front or rear tire regardless of wheelspin. The bike is balanced by application of brake, steering, and throttle control. The TC system won't balance the bike on the throttle, as you said it's purpose is to ramp up acceleration as quickly as possible so if balancing the bike requires throttle modulation then relying on the TC system will screw you.

huh? They slide it by giving throttle and braking traction.......throttle induced oversteer, even the new ZX10's TC allows wheel spin.

 

[franz131]

It's always possible to drive beyond the grip of the front or rear tire regardless of wheelspin. The bike is balanced by application of brake, steering, and throttle control. The TC system won't balance the bike on the throttle, as you said it's purpose is to ramp up acceleration as quickly as possible so if balancing the bike requires throttle modulation then relying on the TC system will screw you.

I'm not sure what you mean by "balancing".
The reason that Stoner excelled on the Ducati in the early days of TC was (a) the sophistication of the system and (b) his absolute trust in it, allowing him to get the maximum speed from the system. When riders try to make decisions for the electronics, they go slow, just like trying to modulate your ABS brakes, it just interferes with the system and extends stopping distance.

 

[fastar1]

huh? They slide it by giving throttle and braking traction.......throttle induced oversteer, even the new ZX10's TC allows wheel spin.

Any rider input can be used to break the rear tire into a drift, steering, brake or throttle. Controlling that drift is best done with the throttle though, and that's why the rider has to maintain control of throttle rather than handing over control to the electronics.

...unless the TC system is capable of controlling a drift but to the best of my knowledge; 1* that's not technically possible and 2* the rules don't allow it. It would also leave the rider with only brakes and steering to allow him to follow his line, which are both crude forms of control compared to using the throttle in a drift.

 

[fastar1]

I'm not sure what you mean by "balancing".
The reason that Stoner excelled on the Ducati in the early days of TC was (a) the sophistication of the system and (b) his absolute trust in it, allowing him to get the maximum speed from the system. When riders try to make decisions for the electronics, they go slow, just like trying to modulate your ABS brakes, it just interferes with the system and extends stopping distance.

By balancing I mean avoiding excessive oversteer and understeer.

A rider can still try to overthink the TC system, but that would have to be at corner exit not mid-corner, where to the best of my knowledge the electronics can't judge the correct amount of throttle that is needed to keep the bike balanced.

 

[franz131]

Fastar1, you underestimate the sophistication of MotoGP electronics. There are sensors for wheel speed, gear, bank angle and yaw. The desired amount of slip (wheel spin) is pre-programmed into the ECU for each sensor value and each rider (very time consuming). Therefore the rider can open the throttle to 100% as soon as he has turned enough to do so (yes, mid-corner) and the TC system will manage the power output so as not to exceed the pre-programmed spin and yaw values.

What Stoner is doing in the vid is steering the bike with the wheelspin allowed by his TC settings.

It's still possible to crash a bike with TC, it's reactive not predictive, so it can be overwhelmed but it rarely happens.

 

[murf]

Any rider input can be used to break the rear tire into a drift, steering, brake or throttle. Controlling that drift is best done with the throttle though, and that's why the rider has to maintain control of throttle rather than handing over control to the electronics.

...unless the TC system is capable of controlling a drift but to the best of my knowledge; 1* that's not technically possible and 2* the rules don't allow it. It would also leave the rider with only brakes and steering to allow him to follow his line, which are both crude forms of control compared to using the throttle in a drift.

Are you saying the traction control is off???
What rules don't allow it?

 

[fastar1]

Are you saying the traction control is off???
What rules don't allow it?

I'm saying traction control strictly speaking doesn't do anything to keep the bike balanced through a corner, that would require a different level of sophistication, and franz is saying Moto GP bikes are equipped with that capability.

Guess I need to do some research.

 

[franz131]

I'm saying traction control strictly speaking doesn't do anything to keep the bike balanced through a corner, that would require a different level of sophistication, and franz is saying Moto GP bikes are equipped with that capability.

Guess I need to do some research.

This is why so many riders are compaining that electronics have taken over the role of the rider. It even affects downshifts, I was siting at the entry toT-1 at Indy last summer and you could tell what brand of bike was going by by how it was downshifted, each brand had it's own sequence based on the electronics.

 

[franz131]

This is the TC system on Aprillia's WSBK homologation model, the RSV4 APRC

Aprilia Traction Control allows riders to intuitively select eight different levels for different corners on the same track. In addition to comparing wheel speeds, APRC consults a gyroscope to determine lean angle and an accelerometer to determine acceleration. Unlike rival traction control systems, this enables APRC to maintain rather than simply cancel slides. Since maximum acceleration is achieved beyond the threshold of complete grip, this makes motorcycles equipped with APRC faster. While in that controlled slide, APRC also allows riders to determine their own angle of slip using the throttle. More throttle equals more slide and vice versa. Because all this occurs while the RSV4 is prevented from spinning out of control is indicative of how sophisticated APRC is.

The throttle control is necessary because they can't program the system for individual riders like they can in MotoGP, but this is a streetbike.

 

[mxs]

This is why so many riders are compaining that electronics have taken over the role of the rider. It even affects downshifts, I was siting at the entry toT-1 at Indy last summer and you could tell what brand of bike was going by by how it was downshifted, each brand had it's own sequence based on the electronics.

Actually an interesting comment of late has been made that sitting in a specific corner in Silverstone revealed that the top 5 MotoGP class riders were using very little electronics help, the lower you got through the rank the heavier the help of electronics was. Stoner = as little electronics as his engineer lets him to get away with and it shows at every race.

I believe that MotoGP class can control throttle response, traction etc. at every corner of any circuit where WSBK is not allowed to do that or use such a complicated and expensive technology ...

 

[mxs]

Yea I don't like the kid but after the last two races I have to take back my comments about his "lack of talent compared to", he rode the **** out of that honda in cataluya and in silverstone he rode hard on the rain, much respect

Stoner's indeed amazing. It's also amazing how much crap he has to put up with, constantly proving over and over that he has buckets of talent and that he's fast ... and furious.

 

[Lightcycle]

Stoner's indeed amazing. It's also amazing how much crap he has to put up with, constantly proving over and over that he has buckets of talent and that he's fast ... and furious.

Every top-level rider has to put up with that crap.

Rossi detractors said it was the Honda that made him fast.
Lorenzo detractors say Rossi built a fast bike for him.

I have loads of respect for anyone who can make the MotoGP grid. These are the 18, um 15... 12 fastest riders in the world.

 

[ZX600]

Every top-level rider has to put up with that crap.

Rossi detractors said it was the Honda that made him fast.
Lorenzo detractors say Rossi built a fast bike for him.

I have loads of respect for anyone who can make the MotoGP grid. These are the 18, um 15... 12 fastest riders in the world.

lol, true about the 12... glad they are opening membership to more teams and riders, 2012 is going to be a fun season

 

[murf]

I'm saying traction control strictly speaking doesn't do anything to keep the bike balanced through a corner, that would require a different level of sophistication, and franz is saying Moto GP bikes are equipped with that capability.

Guess I need to do some research.

did u think they turned it off and on again or something else? They have been pinning it wide open at apexes for years now......hence why Stoner, Rossi etc don't want it.

 

[murf]

Actually an interesting comment of late has been made that sitting in a specific corner in Silverstone revealed that the top 5 MotoGP class riders were using very little electronics help, the lower you got through the rank the heavier the help of electronics was. Stoner = as little electronics as his engineer lets him to get away with and it shows at every race.
..

how would that be revealed?

 

[mxs]

how would that be revealed?

Apparently, if you've done it long enough, your ear will know ... I am not trying to be funny.

 

[mxs]

Every top-level rider has to put up with that crap.

You are right about that I guess, but I think Stoner has a couple more things going against him. His first language is English, so everyone knows what he said and secondly he loves to say as it is which makes his interviews always interesting, but they are also a double edged sword .... I have never heard Rossi being called a spoiled kid, yet Stoner with one title in the bag and the most wins in 800cc era has to still prove things that it was not a coincidence.

I am not sure whether the top 12 guys are the fastest guys in the world. look at Karel Abraham ... everyone, incl. me, was shaking his head when it was announced that he's joining MotoGP. And I t hink there's many more guys like that ...

 

[murf]

Apparently, if you've done it long enough, your ear will know ... I am not trying to be funny.

I would imagine their software engineers and TC systems may be a bit different than the satelite teams.
Do you have a link for this comment?

 

[murf]

I'm saying traction control strictly speaking doesn't do anything to keep the bike balanced through a corner, that would require a different level of sophistication, and franz is saying Moto GP bikes are equipped with that capability.

Guess I need to do some research.

http://m.sportrider.com/tech/146_0603_traction_control_motogp/index.html