SIU investigation of motorcycle running from cops.. | Page 6 | GTAMotorcycle.com

SIU investigation of motorcycle running from cops..

MLadin said:
This is only perceived. People tend to behave themselves more so in their own backyard. Your fear of the unknown and unfamiliar keep you from excessive speeding in the US. Doesn't stop anyone on Mulholland or The Dragon tho. Or NYC where riders kick cop cars for kicks. Same FTP attitude applies there as does here. Never in history have people had so little respect for police. Perhaps 1980's South Central Los Angeles and NWA has gone mainstream. No one talks to, or helps police anymore. If you do, you're not very smart. The moment you start flapping your gums is the moment you become looked at and looked into. It will be interesting to see where policing goes in the future. The more they push the average Jo and Jane taxpayers for revenue, the more they get spat on. Perhaps money should be removed from policing altogether. Those who commit crimes will serve community service or worse. And traffic violations will only hurt your insurance and thus your ability to hold a license. No revenue collected by police under the guise of law.

To all the people who wrote disrespectful things about this dead rider, F you. I can guarantee you his last thoughts were "how am I going to get to work in the morning?" The repercussion of HTA172 and another statistic.

RIP Rider
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Bike Cop said:
I want to start by saying that no one wants to see bikes crash and riders die. The officer behind the wheel goes from routine traffic stop to brief pursuit to witnessing a fatal motorcycle collision in a residential neighbourhood. Then comes months of waiting to find out if SIU thinks it was HIS fault the rider died. It is a terrible event for everyone.

Food for thought:
Police agencies hire a certain personality type. They hire thousands of people and have found that those with either A type personalities, or those who can develop that personality when needed, do best in law enforcement. If I told you to enforce a particular law or set of laws, and your attitude was "well maybe, if I feel like it", what kind of officer would you be? Police are known for taking the bull by the horns when it comes to enforcement. They tend to take ownership of a particular area and defend it like it's their territory.

Here's an example. Let's assume you work on a major highway, like the 400. It's a busy Saturday afternoon, and traffic is heavy 60-80km/hr in all three lanes for a 40 km stretch. You receive multiple traffic complaints of a group of 6-7 sport bikes weaving through traffic and splitting lanes at high speed. The complaints are steadily making their way southbound from the Barrie area toward Toronto. What will you do? You could do nothing and hope for the best. You could interview witnesses over the phone quickly and gather information for followup later. You could wait for them to pass by and attempt to initiate a traffic stop of one or more bikes. You could shrug it off as just another busy weekend, knowing that this won't be the last time it will happen today.

How many people aren't calling 911 but are still affected negatively by this group? You feel some obligation to act, because it's your job to serve and protect, right? How do you do that safely?

The example is real, I deal with it every week in the summer. I'm open to your suggestions.
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hedo2002 said:
Bike cop asked for constructive input. Instead you continue to harp on 172 as if you KNOW that this is why this rider ran. You have NO idea why the officer was initiatating the stop, or if 172 was even a REMOTE possibility. NO ONE here knows what or why this happened.

Unless you can show that 172 was THE reason the officer lit him up, it is extremely disprespectful to the officer and even moreso to the RIDER as you are asserting that he was doing something that would get him into a s172 charge so in fact it is YOU that should take your own adivce to stop posting crap about the rider.

The "stats" your seeking on the number of rider deaths since the introduction of s172 is folley. So if I posted that in the 10 years since s172 was enacted there were 150 rider deaths and in the 10 years prior to s172 there was 88. (NOT actual number, simply for demo purposes). Was does that prove????? Absoultely nothing. officers don't denote "what they may have charged the deceased with" in the investigation. It will say, (something along the lines of), the rider was being pursued for speed, or suspected impaired etc. But you won't find a report which says this rider WAS GOING to be done for s172.. What is 75 of those deaths were single rider fatalities after s172 does that prove that more riders are dying as a result of s172?? If it is determined that a rider was going over 50 km/h, when the collision occured then do we "assign" blame to s172 for their death?

I am, as has been stated many times no fan of s172 which I feel was an ill concieved law put in place to prevent incidents that were NEVER an issue, (that couldn't have been dealt with via existing laws). But agan to "use" this tragedy as a reason to abolish s172 is silly and disprespectful to the rider.

Perhaps the community would be better served, to actually wait for the investigation to be completed and findings released as to why the officer lit up the rider, and possible reasons the rider made the choice he did, AND lastly, if there was even a pursuit.
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Clearly you don't ride a supersport. Cop sees SS bike, cop thinks HTA172. It's a good charge for them and they high-five each other for it. Take a ride up Airport Road or the 400 on any weekend and see brand new Ducatis being loaded onto flatbeds. I ride with some bacon friends . We ride hard, cops are thrill seekers too. When caught at 100 over or whatever, they all just flash their badges and we're on our way. Pure corruption. I obviously use it to my advantage. Keep your enemies close to you (Sun Tzu).

"Only certain personalities are hired as cops "

https://youtu.be/KROIs2EDIAk

Policing as a whole needs to be rethunk. When even the general public are turning on cops, there clearly is something wrong.
 
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To all the people who wrote disrespectful things about this dead rider, F you. I can guarantee you his last thoughts were "how am I going to get to work in the morning?" The repercussion of HTA172 and another statistic.

RIP Rider[/QUOTE]

Just genuinely curious, and not attempting to disparage the deceased, but I honestly struggle with the mentality that people keep defaulting to here. Many crimes have pretty ugly penalties; how does the "flee from the police at all costs" crowd honestly argue that as a mitigating factor? I don't hear anyone asking what the drunk driver's last thoughts were. I don't hear the same for ANY other scenario where someone who is required to stop to speak to police can justify the risk of death to themselves, the police, or the general public. Comparing death to whatever process you face with the cops is indicative of a man-child personality. In fact, monumental selfishness is more appropriate. It appears that on this forum, the SS crowd are freakishly predisposed to thinking they they have a set of circumstances so overwhelming that they cannot enjoy motorcycling without the risk of death or prison, lol. And yes, I have owned and ridden many sportbikes; I'm not oblivious to the attention they get. Hate to say it, but the sympathy train does not apply here. His "how do I get to work in the morning" obviously didn't include what he would do if he killed someone. So maybe your F you should be to him
 
boyoboy said:
not at all.

but to say you cannot even be considered, let alone hired, is incorrect.

another glaring error: police DID have batons in the 1970's. In 1974 i held a "police issue" baton in my hand. leather covered lead about 12"-14" long.
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That wasn't a baton....
 
To be honest, I feel that pretending to know someone who died's thoughts, and using that to push one's agenda is pretty disrespectful.

As far as batons, TPS didn't appear to have them in 1980 at the Alice Cooper riot.
Some did seem to have taped up baseball bats, although they might have been confiscated.

I'm not sure about corruption, but an officer can't have another charged based upon rumours.
 
happycrappy said:
To all the people who wrote disrespectful things about this dead rider, F you. I can guarantee you his last thoughts were "how am I going to get to work in the morning?" The repercussion of HTA172 and another statistic.

RIP Rider
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Just genuinely curious, and not attempting to disparage the deceased, but I honestly struggle with the mentality that people keep defaulting to here. Many crimes have pretty ugly penalties; how does the "flee from the police at all costs" crowd honestly argue that as a mitigating factor? I don't hear anyone asking what the drunk driver's last thoughts were. I don't hear the same for ANY other scenario where someone who is required to stop to speak to police can justify the risk of death to themselves, the police, or the general public. Comparing death to whatever process you face with the cops is indicative of a man-child personality. In fact, monumental selfishness is more appropriate. It appears that on this forum, the SS crowd are freakishly predisposed to thinking they they have a set of circumstances so overwhelming that they cannot enjoy motorcycling without the risk of death or prison, lol. And yes, I have owned and ridden many sportbikes; I'm not oblivious to the attention they get. Hate to say it, but the sympathy train does not apply here. His "how do I get to work in the morning" obviously didn't include what he would do if he killed someone. So maybe your F you should be to him[/QUOTE]

If you did own a sportbike you would know the mindset of a sportbike rider on the road. Easy charge. Take a fine? Sure. Take a reckless driving charge? Sure. Take HTA172? No f'ing way. See ya. You stop, your life is over. $2000 - $10,000 fine. License pulled. Your bike impounded. And you'll never get insurance again having been charged with stunting hence you'll have to bus it to work if that's even possible. You may lose your job. So the risk / reward calculation for the sportbike rider comes into play in a microsecond when he's lit up. If you're on a liter bike and know the area and have some skills, chances are slim to none that they're going to catch you. If you're on a 600 with limited skills and don't know the area you're going to get caught or die like this guy did. The cop in that cruiser is another mitigating factor. Bored cop (rural), under 25, he's going to welcome the chase. Busy cop (city) male / female over 25, their maturity will kick in and think of the disastrous outcomes (wrecking the cruiser, killing themself or the rider). They know the crime does not match the punishment and that's why TPS has a no chase policy. Notawasaga OPP, they're another story. A case before the highest courts could be made right there on why one police service has a no chase policy and another has a chase policy. Is one police service dumb and the other intelligent?

The scooter geeks keep mentioning "what if the runner killed someone in a car or passenger or a pedestrian?" Find me two cases where a rider has struck a car in a chase in Ontario and killed a car driver. Sure, there are plenty of old pictures on the Web, but you won't find any local. It just doesn't happen.

Also, it should be illegal for police to use HTA172 in transition zones on rural highways. My cop friends have a name for this. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. Speed limit is 80, most are doing 100, third are doing 120. Some don't make it down to 50 on time and there's an easy 50 over HTA172 charge. Don't kid yourself, they love using this charge. It was designed to stop tuner cars from road racing the 400 series highways in the 90's. And it worked. And then there was no use for it 'till sportbikes became popular.

Here's a few under 25 cowboy cops to prove the point:

https://youtu.be/wnQR0Fo79iM

https://youtu.be/4vIgFlsen_8
 
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If you did own a sportbike you would know the mindset of a sportbike rider on the road. Easy charge. Take a fine? Sure. Take a reckless driving charge? Sure. Take HTA172? No f'ing way. See ya. You stop, your life is over. $2000 - $10,000 fine. License pulled. Your bike impounded. And you'll never get insurance again having been charged with stunting hence you'll have to bus it to work if that's even possible. You may lose your job. So the risk / reward calculation for the sportbike rider comes into play in a microsecond when he's lit up. Risk/reward - death or a court date. I'm not arguing that we have a different opinion here, but honestly what is different about a guy who has drank himself over the limit making the exact same calculation? I can easily argue that an impaired charge has as much if not more teeth than a 172. If you're on a liter bike and know the area and have some skills, chances are slim to none that they're going to catch you. If you're on a 600 with limited skills and don't know the area you're going to get caught or die like this guy did. This really reeks of a complete absence of maturity. Riding ANYTHING under duress with the police chasing you and you are easily at the same level of risk as a drunk driver. The ability to make decisions and provide input into the bike are severely impacted while running. Litre bike or 600 means a whopping **** allThe cop in that cruiser is another mitigating factor. Bored cop (rural), under 25, he's going to welcome the chase. Busy cop (city) male / female over 25, their maturity will kick in and think of the disastrous outcomes (wrecking the cruiser, killing themself or the rider). I'd love to see something that supports this in the form of a statistic, but I don't know if I can squeeze that much more blind faith into my unicorn hunting time. They know the crime does not match the punishment and that's why TPS has a no chase policy. Notawasaga OPP, they're another story. A case before the highest courts could be made right there on why one police service has a no chase policy and another has a chase policy. Is one police service dumb and the other intelligent? And yet thousands of riders, sport bike riders even manage to enjoy the bikes and not run from police like a twat. I guess that answers the question; yes, some people and organizations are smarter than others

The scooter geeks keep mentioning "what if the runner killed someone in a car or passenger or a pedestrian?" Find me two cases where a rider has struck a car in a chase in Ontario and killed a car driver. Sure, there are plenty of old pictures on the Web, but you won't find any local. It just doesn't happen.

Also, it should be illegal for police to use HTA172 in transition zones on rural highways. My cop friends have a name for this. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. Speed limit is 80, most are doing 100, third are doing 120. Some don't make it down to 50 on time and there's an easy 50 over HTA172 charge. But but but, I thought some mad skillz and the stellar, asphalt-destroying awesomeness of sportbikes could effectively vaporize the very ground they are braking on? There is not a transitional zone anywhere that doesn't provide adequate signage indicating the change. How do the thousands and thousands of other vehicles manage to adjust that easily every day, but some drooling **** on his 1000 can't? HmmmmDon't kid yourself, they love using this charge. It was designed to stop tuner cars from road racing the 400 series highways in the 90's. And it worked. And then there was no use for it 'till sportbikes became popular.[/QUOTE]
 
I think a lot of people are assuming too much rationality on the part of the sport bike rider. A young person takes a calculated risk if he decides to run from the police, and motorcycle riders are addicted to risk. The higher the stakes the bigger the rush and common sense takes a back seat. It's one thing to drive away from a cop by lane splitting through stopped traffic, it's quite another to try to get away on country roads you don't know but the cop surely does. The more wide-open the road, the more speed you're going to have to make to get away and with that comes big risks. This guy took that risk, whether it was because of fear that his life would be ruined or otherwise. I don't think it's worth chasing down a kid if it means risking a life. I have to agree with Happy, there is far less risk in letting the guy go and getting him later. Motorcycles killing others due to speed are very, very rare.
 
happycrappy said:
To all the people who wrote disrespectful things about this dead rider, F you. I can guarantee you his last thoughts were "how am I going to get to work in the morning?" The repercussion of HTA172 and another statistic.

RIP Rider
Click to expand...

Just genuinely curious, and not attempting to disparage the deceased, but I honestly struggle with the mentality that people keep defaulting to here. Many crimes have pretty ugly penalties; how does the "flee from the police at all costs" crowd honestly argue that as a mitigating factor? I don't hear anyone asking what the drunk driver's last thoughts were. I don't hear the same for ANY other scenario where someone who is required to stop to speak to police can justify the risk of death to themselves, the police, or the general public. Comparing death to whatever process you face with the cops is indicative of a man-child personality. In fact, monumental selfishness is more appropriate. It appears that on this forum, the SS crowd are freakishly predisposed to thinking they they have a set of circumstances so overwhelming that they cannot enjoy motorcycling without the risk of death or prison, lol. And yes, I have owned and ridden many sportbikes; I'm not oblivious to the attention they get. Hate to say it, but the sympathy train does not apply here. His "how do I get to work in the morning" obviously didn't include what he would do if he killed someone. So maybe your F you should be to him[/QUOTE]

my apologies to any friends and family
 
This thread is getting too long and off-topic. The guy that keeps bolding my statements clearly isn't a biker. Answer, drunk driver 'can't' get away. A competent rider on a liter bike will get away every time. The only ones that don't get away are the ones that fear cops. They panic.

For the last time HTA172 was brought in to stop tuner cars who then were racing the 400 highways. It worked. There were little to no police chases in Ontario at that time. Enter sportbikes, and this law had new legs. Sportbike riders started getting charged with this law (see the law part of this forum), and as such were branded. Now it's a normal "thing." Cruisers aren't looked at twice except for maybe noise. Sportbike riders are the new rebels the popo have a problem with. As mentioned on this forum a gazillion times re: HTA172, the punishment does not fit the crime. In Ontario, a rapist, burglar, drunk driver, wife beater would face a lesser punishment than the sportbike rider who cracks the throttle on a back country road where there is nothing, and no one to harm but himself..

Ontario pre HTA172 - police chases little to none.

Ontario post HTA172 - police chases are an every day occurrence.

Contrary to what you think and what you have written, most sportbikes "do" get away. A liter bike will do 140 kph in first gear and 0-60 faster than a bugatti vehron. A GSX-R 1000 0-60 is 2.8 seconds, faster than any Lamborghini or Ferrari or any supercar. The popo doesn't stand a chance even with airwaves. Only thing that will nab a superbike every time is a chopper in the sky.

Enjoyed the banter and argument, but sometimes people can't understand each others mentality. I'm giving you the street superbike rider perspective. You'll either get it or not.
 
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^^ Maybe you're not a biker. The views you propose certainly aren't ones I share. The people I hang around with certainly don't have those points of view either. None of us would even consider running from a cop for many reasons, not the least of which is that we're basically grown up, not infants, and that we wouldn't get into that position in the first place.
 
jc100 said:
^^ Maybe you're not a biker. The views you propose certainly aren't ones I share. The people I hang around with certainly don't have those points of view either. None of us would even consider running from a cop for many reasons, not the least of which is that we're basically grown up, not infants, and that we wouldn't get into that position in the first place.
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There's a difference between a biker and a rider...rider.
 
MLadin said:
There's a difference between a biker and a rider...rider.
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Indeed there is. "Rider is a general term for someone who rides a motorcycle, while "biker" generally describes a member of one of several organizations that are generally identified by patches on their clothing, and who may or may not actually ride motorcycles.

As to the running thing if you don't think that it was a daily occurrence, before HTA 172, then you either weren't riding then of weren't paying attention. For example back in the '90s, on several occasions, I was thanked by police for not running because it was such a common thing.
 
Rob MacLennan said:
Indeed there is. "Rider is a general term for someone who rides a motorcycle, while "biker" generally describes a member of one of several organizations that are generally identified by patches on their clothing, and who may or may not actually ride motorcycles.

As to the running thing if you don't think that it was a daily occurrence, before HTA 172, then you either weren't riding then of weren't paying attention. For example back in the '90s, on several occasions, I was thanked by police for not running because it was such a common thing.
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In the 80's it wasn't common to see / hear chases motorcycle vs police. Maybe little Johnny the bad neighbourhood kid would take off on his RM 80.. And the yellow peel police car with the one big rotating red light and the siren from Adam 12 would pursue. He'd get a good scare and his parents would have to go to Williams Pkwy to get his bike back. My friends and I would side saddle our MX bikes to ABC pits in first gear. If we saw the police we'd kill the engine and hop off and push. It was an effective method. Popo were called 'constables' then and they were for the most part respected by the general population. Man, how times have changed.

MC is what you describe. And many MC members don't wear patches or colours anymore. Or ride motorcycles for that matter.. If you see black SUV's with guys that are in shape with black t-shirts on, you're looking at the real thing.

Riders are people who ride / commute on motorcycles or scooters (Europe) (Asia) as a cheap form of transportation. There is no more to it than that. The motorcycle is a tool.

Bikers are people that live and breath motorcycles. They've done it forever and would trade their first born for their dream bike. Biker isn't a noun, it's an adjective. Biker is an attitude.
 
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MLadin said:
In the 80's it wasn't common to see / hear chases motorcycle vs police. Maybe little Johnny the bad neighbourhood kid would take off on his RM 80.. And the yellow peel police car with the one big rotating red light and the siren from Adam 12 would pursue. He'd get a good scare and his parents would have to go to Williams Pkwy to get his bike back. My friends and I would side saddle our MX bikes to ABC pits in first gear. If we saw the police we'd kill the engine and hop off and push. It was an effective method. Popo were called 'constables' then and they were for the most part respected by the general population. Man, how times have changed.

MC is what you describe. And many MC members don't wear patches or colours anymore. Or ride motorcycles for that matter.. If you see black SUV's with guys that are in shape with black t-shirts on, you're looking at the real thing.

Riders are people who ride / commute on motorcycles or scooters (Europe) (Asia) as a cheap form of transportation. There is no more to it than that. The motorcycle is a tool.

Bikers are people that live and breath motorcycles. They've done it forever and would trade their first born for their dream bike. Biker isn't a noun, it's an adjective. Biker is an attitude.
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Correction: In the '80s we didn't have pervasive social media, 24/7 news channels on 8 hour repeats, dying newspapers that are hungry for any story, or message boards where people share everything that they see, read, or hear. The chases still happened. Everyone knew about the kid who broke his back at the pits and whose parents sued the owner, won, figured they didn't get enough, then lost on appeal. Not so many knew of the nightly races and chases by police in the summer. It wasn't common for police to announce their failures.

You define "biker" however you like. I think that you'll find that the public's definition to be somewhat different.
 
[/I]
MLadin said:
In the 80's it wasn't common to see / hear chases motorcycle vs police. Maybe little Johnny the bad neighbourhood kid would take off on his RM 80.. And the yellow peel police car with the one big rotating red light and the siren from Adam 12 would pursue. He'd get a good scare and his parents would have to go to Williams Pkwy to get his bike back. My friends and I would side saddle our MX bikes to ABC pits in first gear. If we saw the police we'd kill the engine and hop off and push. It was an effective method. Popo were called 'constables' then and they were for the most part respected by the general population. Man, how times have changed.

MC is what you describe. And many MC members don't wear patches or colours anymore. Or ride motorcycles for that matter.. If you see black SUV's with guys that are in shape with black t-shirts on, you're looking at the real thing.

Riders are people who ride / commute on motorcycles or scooters (Europe) (Asia) as a cheap form of transportation. There is no more to it than that. The motorcycle is a tool.

Bikers are people that live and breath motorcycles. They've done it forever and would trade their first born for their dream bike. Biker isn't a noun, it's an adjective. Biker is an attitude.
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What complete and utter twaddle. Do you have the same misty-eyed adoration for all sub-groups in a culture that lose any sense of proportion? ("You part-time supporters don't get it. We are Millwall. We HAD to cripple him.")
 
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