SIU investigation of motorcycle running from cops..

[CafeRay]

Forum Sponsor

If we don't want people to run from police. Stop chasing them its safer for everyone.

That just sends the message to run.

Motorcycles attract risky behaviour types, it's the nature of the machine. This personality and modern fast bikes are a recipe for eventual disaster.

This guy was 34. We can stop calling him a young man. If you don't have your mental sh-t together by 34, something else will kill you sooner or later (typically a snowmobile riding out on a "frozen" lake, or Kenora natural causes).

There are just some people who don't think, and they are attracted to motorcycles, any law changes will not affect this fact at all.

All this navel gazing about, "how can we prevent this tragedy..." is pointless, you can't make people smarter.

It's not a coincidence that many people don't believe in the science of Darwin.

 

[Marcus33]

I dont usually post, but I feel in this case I need too,
The rider is dead, someone lost their life, a child doesnt have a father, a sister lost her brother, a mother lost her son,
Yes its true he made a bad decision and in that moment he, hurt himself no one else.
Dont blame the cop or HTA 172. At this point its a blameless act.
Its just like an individual (pedestrian) wearing all black crossing on a red light at night, listening to music. (using all of the what ifs and maybe scenarios, what if im driving with my family in the car and to avoid hitting her/ him I crash and injure myself or my family. Does that make the jaywalker a bad person? Should we change the laws or demand more or less policing for jaywalking or just make jaywalking legal??

Im my view its the same thing and just as dangerous. Go to any police station the stats are usually posted more pedestrian fatalities than any other form of transportation

 

[gsxr guy]

That just sends the message to run.

Motorcycles attract risky behaviour types, it's the nature of the machine. This personality and modern fast bikes are a recipe for eventual disaster.

This guy was 34. We can stop calling him a young man. If you don't have your mental sh-t together by 34, something else will kill you sooner or later (typically a snowmobile riding out on a "frozen" lake, or Kenora natural causes).

There are just some people who don't think, and they are attracted to motorcycles, any law changes will not affect this fact at all.

All this navel gazing about, "how can we prevent this tragedy..." is pointless, you can't make people smarter.

It's not a coincidence that many people don't believe in the science of Darwin.

People that will run don't need a message,as you put it, to run. They will regardless. When one of your children gets killed because someone was running from the police on a bike or a car. Your view on chasing may change.

 

[Baggsy]

The problem is that laws are made for those who haven't figured out how to get along together yet.

It's impossible to make the system foolproof.

Even if you put in a system where bikes would automatically lock up the front tire, when nearby police were chasing you, some people would still try it.

If these riders knew that they'd be going down and writing off their bike, then they might hesitate to run.

As for traffic on the 401, a short-term solution might be to lower tolls on the 407.
The problem is that it would also encourage more people to drive.
Long term, would be to get decent and quick public transportation to places that people want/need to go.

When I was a kid, every second or third house had a car. Now each house has two or three.

 

[-Maverick-]

Robbery: Something you can't avoid
Traffic tickets: Entirely avoidable

My experience driving and riding in the US is that speed limits are more strictly enforced than here in Canada with little leeway. If I cross the border at NY there's guaranteed going to be 2-3 patrol cars between me and the town 40 mins down the road and they are ONLY there to doll out speed fines. I don't speed more than a few mph above posted in the US as a consequence. I'm usually travelling faster in Ontario than I am just across the border. Do I ever think of running? No..I'm grown up now.

One bright thing about the highly enforced speed limits in the US is that driving there is much more pleasant than here in Canada to be honest.

This is only perceived. People tend to behave themselves more so in their own backyard. Your fear of the unknown and unfamiliar keep you from excessive speeding in the US. Doesn't stop anyone on Mulholland or The Dragon tho. Or NYC where riders kick cop cars for kicks. Same FTP attitude applies there as does here. Never in history have people had so little respect for police. Perhaps 1980's South Central Los Angeles and NWA has gone mainstream. No one talks to, or helps police anymore. If you do, you're not very smart. The moment you start flapping your gums is the moment you become looked at and looked into. It will be interesting to see where policing goes in the future. The more they push the average Jo and Jane taxpayers for revenue, the more they get spat on. Perhaps money should be removed from policing altogether. Those who commit crimes will serve community service or worse. And traffic violations will only hurt your insurance and thus your ability to hold a license. No revenue collected by police under the guise of law.

To all the people who wrote disrespectful things about this dead rider, F you. I can guarantee you his last thoughts were "how am I going to get to work in the morning?" The repercussion of HTA172 and another statistic.

RIP Rider

 

[Bike Cop]

I want to start by saying that no one wants to see bikes crash and riders die. The officer behind the wheel goes from routine traffic stop to brief pursuit to witnessing a fatal motorcycle collision in a residential neighbourhood. Then comes months of waiting to find out if SIU thinks it was HIS fault the rider died. It is a terrible event for everyone.

Food for thought:
Police agencies hire a certain personality type. They hire thousands of people and have found that those with either A type personalities, or those who can develop that personality when needed, do best in law enforcement. If I told you to enforce a particular law or set of laws, and your attitude was "well maybe, if I feel like it", what kind of officer would you be? Police are known for taking the bull by the horns when it comes to enforcement. They tend to take ownership of a particular area and defend it like it's their territory.

Here's an example. Let's assume you work on a major highway, like the 400. It's a busy Saturday afternoon, and traffic is heavy 60-80km/hr in all three lanes for a 40 km stretch. You receive multiple traffic complaints of a group of 6-7 sport bikes weaving through traffic and splitting lanes at high speed. The complaints are steadily making their way southbound from the Barrie area toward Toronto. What will you do? You could do nothing and hope for the best. You could interview witnesses over the phone quickly and gather information for followup later. You could wait for them to pass by and attempt to initiate a traffic stop of one or more bikes. You could shrug it off as just another busy weekend, knowing that this won't be the last time it will happen today.

How many people aren't calling 911 but are still affected negatively by this group? You feel some obligation to act, because it's your job to serve and protect, right? How do you do that safely?

The example is real, I deal with it every week in the summer. I'm open to your suggestions.

 

[the bandit]

To all the people who wrote disrespectful things about this dead rider, F you.

RIP Rider

+1 agreed

 

[-Maverick-]

I want to start by saying that no one wants to see bikes crash and riders die. The officer behind the wheel goes from routine traffic stop to brief pursuit to witnessing a fatal motorcycle collision in a residential neighbourhood. Then comes months of waiting to find out if SIU thinks it was HIS fault the rider died. It is a terrible event for everyone.

Food for thought:
Police agencies hire a certain personality type. They hire thousands of people and have found that those with either A type personalities, or those who can develop that personality when needed, do best in law enforcement. If I told you to enforce a particular law or set of laws, and your attitude was "well maybe, if I feel like it", what kind of officer would you be? Police are known for taking the bull by the horns when it comes to enforcement. They tend to take ownership of a particular area and defend it like it's their territory.

Here's an example. Let's assume you work on a major highway, like the 400. It's a busy Saturday afternoon, and traffic is heavy 60-80km/hr in all three lanes for a 40 km stretch. You receive multiple traffic complaints of a group of 6-7 sport bikes weaving through traffic and splitting lanes at high speed. The complaints are steadily making their way southbound from the Barrie area toward Toronto. What will you do? You could do nothing and hope for the best. You could interview witnesses over the phone quickly and gather information for followup later. You could wait for them to pass by and attempt to initiate a traffic stop of one or more bikes. You could shrug it off as just another busy weekend, knowing that this won't be the last time it will happen today.

How many people aren't calling 911 but are still affected negatively by this group? You feel some obligation to act, because it's your job to serve and protect, right? How do you do that safely?

The example is real, I deal with it every week in the summer. I'm open to your suggestions.

If you want to do something intelligent, gather up the statistics on dead motorcycle riders since HTA172 was introduced to stop racing zip cars on the 400 series highways. Present your findings to MP's and MPP's as your police chief(s) won't give those stats one care.

 

[Joe Bass]

Took the words right out of my mouth. Riding a ss I'm already on the no no list so I pick and choose my time and places. The gta is neither. Haven't had a ticket in 17 years nor have I been runover by going too slow. :dontknow:

You ride ass?

 

[Roomie]

Only the ones in front of me slowed down by too much ice cream consumption

 

[Leethal]

My younger self spent 5 years banging a cops wife. Im so glad there was no 172 back then.

 

[Joe Bass]

Only the ones in front of me slowed down by too much ice cream consumption

Bazinga!

 

[gsxr guy]

I want to start by saying that no one wants to see bikes crash and riders die. The officer behind the wheel goes from routine traffic stop to brief pursuit to witnessing a fatal motorcycle collision in a residential neighbourhood. Then comes months of waiting to find out if SIU thinks it was HIS fault the rider died. It is a terrible event for everyone.

Food for thought:
Police agencies hire a certain personality type. They hire thousands of people and have found that those with either A type personalities, or those who can develop that personality when needed, do best in law enforcement. If I told you to enforce a particular law or set of laws, and your attitude was "well maybe, if I feel like it", what kind of officer would you be? Police are known for taking the bull by the horns when it comes to enforcement. They tend to take ownership of a particular area and defend it like it's their territory.

Here's an example. Let's assume you work on a major highway, like the 400. It's a busy Saturday afternoon, and traffic is heavy 60-80km/hr in all three lanes for a 40 km stretch. You receive multiple traffic complaints of a group of 6-7 sport bikes weaving through traffic and splitting lanes at high speed. The complaints are steadily making their way southbound from the Barrie area toward Toronto. What will you do? You could do nothing and hope for the best. You could interview witnesses over the phone quickly and gather information for followup later. You could wait for them to pass by and attempt to initiate a traffic stop of one or more bikes. You could shrug it off as just another busy weekend, knowing that this won't be the last time it will happen today.

How many people aren't calling 911 but are still affected negatively by this group? You feel some obligation to act, because it's your job to serve and protect, right? How do you do that safely?

The example is real, I deal with it every week in the summer. I'm open to your suggestions.

Air support is the safest, helicopter follows at a distance till suspect stops then roll in the ground troops.

 

[hedo2002]

Bike cop asked for constructive input. Instead you continue to harp on 172 as if you KNOW that this is why this rider ran. You have NO idea why the officer was initiatating the stop, or if 172 was even a REMOTE possibility. NO ONE here knows what or why this happened.

Unless you can show that 172 was THE reason the officer lit him up, it is extremely disprespectful to the officer and even moreso to the RIDER as you are asserting that he was doing something that would get him into a s172 charge so in fact it is YOU that should take your own adivce to stop posting crap about the rider.

The "stats" your seeking on the number of rider deaths since the introduction of s172 is folley. So if I posted that in the 10 years since s172 was enacted there were 150 rider deaths and in the 10 years prior to s172 there was 88. (NOT actual number, simply for demo purposes). Was does that prove????? Absoultely nothing. officers don't denote "what they may have charged the deceased with" in the investigation. It will say, (something along the lines of), the rider was being pursued for speed, or suspected impaired etc. But you won't find a report which says this rider WAS GOING to be done for s172.. What is 75 of those deaths were single rider fatalities after s172 does that prove that more riders are dying as a result of s172?? If it is determined that a rider was going over 50 km/h, when the collision occured then do we "assign" blame to s172 for their death?

I am, as has been stated many times no fan of s172 which I feel was an ill concieved law put in place to prevent incidents that were NEVER an issue, (that couldn't have been dealt with via existing laws). But agan to "use" this tragedy as a reason to abolish s172 is silly and disprespectful to the rider.

Perhaps the community would be better served, to actually wait for the investigation to be completed and findings released as to why the officer lit up the rider, and possible reasons the rider made the choice he did, AND lastly, if there was even a pursuit.

If you want to do something intelligent, gather up the statistics on dead motorcycle riders since HTA172 was introduced to stop racing zip cars on the 400 series highways. Present your findings to MP's and MPP's as your police chief(s) won't give those stats one care.

 

[hedo2002]

This is one tactic I would support 100% unfortunately, air support is minimal, in Ontario, (hell even Winnepeg has air support), and most wouldn't support the increased taxes to pay for this expensive option.

Air support is the safest, helicopter follows at a distance till suspect stops then roll in the ground troops.

 

[油井緋色]

This is one tactic I would support 100% unfortunately, air support is minimal, in Ontario, (hell even Winnepeg has air support), and most wouldn't support the increased taxes to pay for this expensive option.

The solution that would work is redoing the entire licensing system to something similar in Europe and having Canada/Ontario as a whole take driving/riding/motorsports more seriously.

And maybe build some government funded race tracks lol They build skate parks for kiddies right?!

 

[crankcall]

This is one tactic I would support 100% unfortunately, air support is minimal, in Ontario, (hell even Winnepeg has air support), and most wouldn't support the increased taxes to pay for this expensive option.

sadly if we had some level of sense of value at the provincial level, the cancelled gas plants could have bought 25 copters and paid the pilots salary for a decade. I don't think tax increases would even be visible or required. But that's a different trail.

my theory today is the gas plants were never going to be built, it was a rouse to propose them , get momentum and then cancel and pay huge penalties to the industry, Some lawyers somewhere made millions.

Back to the SIU, the only guy that probably knows what really went on in the riders mind was the rider, the rest is filling in forms for PR work

 

[ZX600]

All riders in that said group would most likely ride together again soon or most likely know each other, I would try and gather at least one license plate and go visit that rider at home later on, scare the **** out of him/her, that person will then pass along the story to their friends and they might think twice next time, I know I would when I was a hooligan.

Unfortunately this will not satisfy the "type A" personalities the police force hires but it would most likely save the life of a rider, cop or innocent driver.

Funny that I thought the police force would hire people that present personality characteristics of common sense, fairness, good judgement and emotional intelligence instead of the ones of a "guard dog" pissing all over "their" territory.

I want to start by saying that no one wants to see bikes crash and riders die. The officer behind the wheel goes from routine traffic stop to brief pursuit to witnessing a fatal motorcycle collision in a residential neighbourhood. Then comes months of waiting to find out if SIU thinks it was HIS fault the rider died. It is a terrible event for everyone.

Food for thought:
Police agencies hire a certain personality type. They hire thousands of people and have found that those with either A type personalities, or those who can develop that personality when needed, do best in law enforcement. If I told you to enforce a particular law or set of laws, and your attitude was "well maybe, if I feel like it", what kind of officer would you be? Police are known for taking the bull by the horns when it comes to enforcement. They tend to take ownership of a particular area and defend it like it's their territory.

Here's an example. Let's assume you work on a major highway, like the 400. It's a busy Saturday afternoon, and traffic is heavy 60-80km/hr in all three lanes for a 40 km stretch. You receive multiple traffic complaints of a group of 6-7 sport bikes weaving through traffic and splitting lanes at high speed. The complaints are steadily making their way southbound from the Barrie area toward Toronto. What will you do? You could do nothing and hope for the best. You could interview witnesses over the phone quickly and gather information for followup later. You could wait for them to pass by and attempt to initiate a traffic stop of one or more bikes. You could shrug it off as just another busy weekend, knowing that this won't be the last time it will happen today.

How many people aren't calling 911 but are still affected negatively by this group? You feel some obligation to act, because it's your job to serve and protect, right? How do you do that safely?

The example is real, I deal with it every week in the summer. I'm open to your suggestions.

 

[油井緋色]

Funny that I thought the police force would hire people that present personality characteristics of common sense, fairness, good judgement and emotional intelligence instead of the ones of a "guard dog" pissing all over "their" territory.

No offense to cops but the less emotional intelligent and intelligence a cop has, the better it is. Otherwise they would start questioning things and seeing cracks in the system. The less rationalization someone does, the more easily they can just "follow orders". Cops, in general, are a bandaid solution similar to prisons. Education, propaganda, and manipulation work much more effectively but take a lot more resources.

At least that's what I'm getting out of this.

 

[ZX600]

Well, I am not a fan of cops but take it easy lol, their job for a fact is to enforce the rules so the rules are not for them to question, how they go about enforcing them is what I have a problem with

No offense to cops but the less emotional intelligent and intelligence a cop has, the better it is. Otherwise they would start questioning things and seeing cracks in the system. The less rationalization someone does, the more easily they can just "follow orders". Cops, in general, are a bandaid solution similar to prisons. Education, propaganda, and manipulation work much more effectively but take a lot more resources.

At least that's what I'm getting out of this.

Forum Sponsor