SIMS - can they help you be a better rider?

[油井緋色]

Otherwise - and I'm speaking as someone who loves video games - motorcycle games usually have such alien controls that they don't hold my interest for more than a few minutes. I was almost interested in Ride 3/4 but the bikes sound disappointingly bad. Like early 2000s bad. I do think that even in games that don't control great, you can learn something about track layouts and entry speeds etc.

The physics are usually weird. Also weird af to control lean with the right stick. Tbh I dislike motorcycle racing games.

Also lack of VR and laser scanned tracks is another huge issue. ACC and iRacing's Laguna Seca (Mazada Speedway, or whatever it is now) has a proper huge vertical plummet at the corkscrew. The elevation changes also change how the operator handles the car (will spin easier with loose setups.) GT and Forza, for example, are far flatter all around the track.

Maybe if we ever hit true matrix like "jacking in" one day though! Dunno how anyone's gonna create hardware for motorcycle sims due to gyroscopic forces needed when hanging off the bike.

 

[油井緋色]

I'm guessing the sims would have the player doing 1:20's very quickly as well.

Only the arcade racer type games (which I'd argue are all motorcycle ones.)

I can't keep up with the real F1 pros on iRacing and very few can. Assetto Corsa Competiz...some Italian word is another good sim.

 

[GreyGhost]

Maybe if we ever hit true matrix like "jacking in" one day though! Dunno how anyone's gonna create hardware for motorcycle sims due to gyroscopic forces needed when hanging off the bike.

Given the budgets some people put into sims, it wouldn't be that hard to include some form of self righting. It might be gyroscopes but it is probably easier to use something like hydraulics as gyroscopes impose all sorts of undesired forces in a simulator (eg bike tries to turn when leaned).

 

[Ash]

This is the only motorcycle hardware rig that truly interests me: Cruden youtube link. This one stands out because it appears to have actual counter-steering controls (around minute 1:09 in the video), which to me is a critically important facet of emulating riding a motorcycle.

All of the other hardware rigs I've seen appear to work solely by initiating a turn by leaning the rig over with your body weight. You can see how rough that "steering" input looks on the LeanGP rig: LeanGP youtube link. I don't really want to start an argument about counter-steering versus peg weighting, but one of those options is clearly more important than the other on a real bike. In addition to the counter-steering controls, the Cruden rig does have the "lean your body to lean the bike" feature too, but I'd actually prefer if it didn't, because you will end up in the wall if you believe that's how you turn a real bike.

The Cruden rig also has hydraulics that look like they would do a pretty good job of emulating braking and acceleration forces by tipping the bike forwards and backwards. But like mentioned previously, there's no inertia pushing you outwards "into" the bike when you're in a corner, so your legs are going to get a huge workout from trying to hold up your weight.

 

[油井緋色]

Given the budgets some people put into sims, it wouldn't be that hard to include some form of self righting. It might be gyroscopes but it is probably easier to use something like hydraulics as gyroscopes impose all sorts of undesired forces in a simulator (eg bike tries to turn when leaned).

How would you propose the rider stay on the bike when leaned over 45 degrees?

You know that Wonderland ride where there are no seat belts, you stand, and it spins yet you're stuck on the "wall" of the ride even when it's vertical and you're upside down? That's the same thing that happens when leaned over and turning.

 

[油井緋色]

This is the only motorcycle hardware rig that truly interests me: Cruden youtube link. This one stands out because it appears to have actual counter-steering controls (around minute 1:09 in the video), which to me is a critically important facet of emulating riding a motorcycle.

All of the other hardware rigs I've seen appear to work solely by initiating a turn by leaning the rig over with your body weight. You can see how rough that "steering" input looks on the LeanGP rig: LeanGP youtube link. I don't really want to start an argument about counter-steering versus peg weighting, but one of those options is clearly more important than the other on a real bike. In addition to the counter-steering controls, the Cruden rig does have the "lean your body to lean the bike" feature too, but I'd actually prefer if it didn't, because you will end up in the wall if you believe that's how you turn a real bike.

The Cruden rig also has hydraulics that look like they would do a pretty good job of emulating braking and acceleration forces by tipping the bike forwards and backwards. But like mentioned previously, there's no inertia pushing you outwards "into" the bike when you're in a corner, so your legs are going to get a huge workout from trying to hold up your weight.

WTF!!!

That looks neat af!

 

[GreyGhost]

How would you propose the rider stay on the bike when leaned over 45 degrees?

Dunno. It would detach from realism but may be a viable control technique to have the hydraulics tip the ground plane when you lean the bike over. Rider stays just off vertical to provide the force you are looking for.

 

[Ash]

Dunno. It would detach from realism but may be a viable control technique to have the hydraulics tip the ground plane when you lean the bike over. Rider stays just off vertical to provide the force you are looking for.

Yeah, you could imagine that if the rig hydraulically tipped the bike the "wrong" way when leaning into a turn you'd get the sensation of outwards inertia that you feel on a real bike. You'd have to wear a VR headset for this to work though, to maintain the horizon and the illusion that you're turning the "right" way. Just the idea of that setup makes me nauseous though...

 

[油井緋色]

Yeah, you could imagine that if the rig hydraulically tipped the bike the "wrong" way when leaning into a turn you'd get the sensation of outwards inertia that you feel on a real bike. You'd have to wear a VR headset for this to work though, to maintain the horizon and the illusion that you're turning the "right" way. Just the idea of that setup makes me nauseous though...

Inb4 somebody is ejected. I think this would work though cause if you're in VR, one might not be able to tell.

My ass cheeks still involuntary tighten on elevation drops in VR without a motion system lol

Edit: car sims simulate crashes (take hand off wheel to prevent injury too.) Would be hilarious if low sides were simulated. Not sure about highsides lol

 

[GreyGhost]

Would be hilarious if low sides were simulated. Not sure about highsides lol

That would be easy enough in my tilting floor plane design. For lowsides, it stands the bike up and dumps you off on the floor. You need to hop back on to get your rider going again. Given enough hydraulic power, a high side would be easy to simulate but getting physically tossed across the room wearing a headset and no protection is probably not a great idea.

Edit:
Instead of physically having you crash, hooking up some electrical leads to put you in pain is probably a safer feedback loop. Don't want to get tased, don't crash.

 

[Ash]

I think using gravity to simulate cornering forces combined with VR to trick your brain into thinking that you're leaned over would work well once you are established and stable in the turn. It should be reasonably easy to emulate a nice long, sweeping corner for instance. I'd be very interested to see how well it would feel on the initial tip-in to the corner though. The sensations you get when you first tip a real bike from vertical into a corner are rather subtle and ramp up as you get it leaned over, so the hydraulics would have to be both very quick and powerful to handle big, fast motions, and also very smooth to account for all the nearly subliminal little feedback you get through the bars. Any delay between the VR presentation of the horizon and the hydraulics actually moving the bike will give you motion sickness pretty quick.

I think it would be more than adequate to just use a vibration shaker and some audio for crash feedback. No need to fling me into the coffee table, thanks. You can see the Cruden test rider wearing a breakaway lanyard killswitch even just for going around simple corners.

 

[GreyGhost]

I think using gravity to simulate cornering forces combined with VR to trick your brain into thinking that you're leaned over would work well once you are established and stable in the turn. It should be reasonably easy to emulate a nice long, sweeping corner for instance. I'd be very interested to see how well it would feel on the initial tip-in to the corner though. The sensations you get when you first tip a real bike from vertical into a corner are rather subtle and ramp up as you get it leaned over, so the hydraulics would have to be both very quick and powerful to handle big, fast motions, and also very smooth to account for all the nearly subliminal little feedback you get through the bars. Any delay between the VR presentation of the horizon and the hydraulics actually moving the bike will give you motion sickness pretty quick.

I think it would be more than adequate to just use a vibration shaker and some audio for crash feedback. No need to fling me into the coffee table, thanks. You can see the Cruden test rider wearing a breakaway lanyard killswitch even just for going around simple corners.

The lighter the appliance you sit on is, the easier it is for hydraulics. The Cruden looks amazing but it could react faster with more subtlety if they used a fixtured control triangle instead of a bike.

 

[油井緋色]

 

[Jayv]

I remember doing online Nascar racing in the 90's with papyrus, it was a dial up call to a Boston server, it was $$$$ expensive

From that YT vid the graphics, AI and gameplay have come a long way, last game I played was Grand Turismo loved the nurburgring.

 

[油井緋色]

I remember doing online Nascar racing in the 90's with papyrus, it was a dial up call to a Boston server, it was $$$$ expensive

From that YT vid the graphics, AI and gameplay have come a long way, last game I played was Grand Turismo loved the nurburgring.

The AI has definitely improved in games like F120xx where the focus is single player. A lot of the sim "games" (honestly not sure if they should even be called games with a simulation setup) have live multiplayer with built in prediction netcode, with races scheduled weeks ahead of time. This lets players race literally .1 seconds apart with only the extreme professionals wrecking the netcode because they drive up each other's ***** like they do irl.

Example:

lol

 

[sid_for_speed]

The best Motorcycle simulator, MotoGp Simulator, Motorbike Simulator

The best motorcycle simulator at affordable prices. Enjoy yourself and train safely. Drive your bike on every circuit in the world. MotoGP simulator

www.mototrainer.it

Can this thing get any more real?

 

[GreyGhost]

The best Motorcycle simulator, MotoGp Simulator, Motorbike Simulator

The best motorcycle simulator at affordable prices. Enjoy yourself and train safely. Drive your bike on every circuit in the world. MotoGP simulator

www.mototrainer.it

Can this thing get any more real?

Yes but it will need a lot more space. Put it on a rotating arm and you can get acceleration and braking g forces. You could also add rotation along the wheelie/stopping access to dump you off if you do something dumb (or provide feedback at lower levels of input force).

 

[Ash]

The best Motorcycle simulator, MotoGp Simulator, Motorbike Simulator

The best motorcycle simulator at affordable prices. Enjoy yourself and train safely. Drive your bike on every circuit in the world. MotoGP simulator

www.mototrainer.it

Can this thing get any more real?

It isn't clear from the videos exactly how their steering control works, but it doesn't appear to be related to counter-steering or handlebar input . You can see a couple of times in the third video that the rider is hanging off normally while in the turn, but he has to hoist himself up and over the top of the bike to the other side in order to get the bike standing up straight again on the exit of the turn.

That looks really awkward and it's pretty much the opposite of what you really do on track.