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LiveWire recall announced by NHTSA

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Trials said:
If you could go from one H-D shop to the next and easy exchange a depleted battery array for a charged one 24-7 that would help a lot.
We just need battery stations and standardized battery packs that are as easy to exchange as D cells in an old flashlight.
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Problem is that the battery is usually nearly the of the cost of these vehicles.

So if I have an EV with a battery that is no longer holding a charge and am about to be left with a big piece of hazardous waste, exchanging the battery for a fresh one would really screw up the company that owns the battery that you are trading for.

On the flip side I'd be ****** if I traded my brand new EV battery for a battery that only gets 25% range.

You think it's easy stealing an entire motorcycle? Imagine if the $8000 (zero's 2nd smallest battery) battery was easily removable.
 
woot said:
Problem is that the battery is usually nearly the of the cost of these vehicles.

So if I have an EV with a battery that is no longer holding a charge and am about to be left with a big piece of hazardous waste, exchanging the battery for a fresh one would really screw up the company that owns the battery that you are trading for.

On the flip side I'd be ****** if I traded my brand new EV battery for a battery that only gets 25% range.

You think it's easy stealing an entire motorcycle? Imagine if the $8000 (zero's 2nd smallest battery) battery was easily removable.
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the toxic waste part makes it all the more important and the limited battery life needs to be addressed, stations make all that easier to implement much like they do with 20 pound propane tanks
 
In such a business model the owner never really owns the batteries the energy company does.
but that is how energy companies become hugely successful too, they own the market.
 
Trials said:
In such a business model the owner never really owns the batteries the energy company does.
but that is how energy companies become hugely successful too, they own the market.
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Sorry what business model is that?

If it was economically viable for a company to do this then I'm sure companies would be jumping at the opportunity to sell electric vehicles at an 80% discount and then charging people for the electricity+profit+(cost of battery/rated # charge cycles).

just happened to see this today. I think that the best upside of the swappable standarized batteries you describe is that EVs would not become trash when battery technology evolves.

 
woot said:
Sorry what business model is that?

If it was economically viable for a company to do this then I'm sure companies would be jumping at the opportunity to sell electric vehicles at an 80% discount and then charging people for the electricity+profit+(cost of battery/rated # charge cycles).

just happened to see this today. I think that the best upside of the swappable standarized batteries you describe is that EVs would not become trash when battery technology evolves.

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I think battery technology is evolving too quickly for a viable long-term swappable solution. If such a solution did exist, it would use cooled packs as the supplier wouldn't want to be stuck with batteries that fail in a few years. If Nissan hadn't made such crap in the first place, the cars would still be going strong (eg GM/Tesla).

This is probably another unintended consequence of government intervention. They push hard and incentivize EV sales, but missed including a requirement that they are not environmental nightmares. In hindsite, to be eligible for incentives, manufacturers should have been required to guarantee 80% battery life at 15 years old or face a substantial penalty for every vehicle that failed to comply. That would put useful EV lifetime similar to useful ICE lifetime (or potentially better but at least not substantially worse).
 
Electrics (in general) are the wave of the future and will continue to be until the 3 Rs (range, recharge time and recycling) are solved.
 
TK4 said:
Electrics (in general) are the wave of the future and will continue to be until the 3 Rs (range, recharge time and recycling) are solved.
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Probably just one and two. We have ostriched on recycling for decades, I don't expect that to change anytime soon (lots of talk but little useful action).

Range on most of them is pretty good for a vehicle that returns home every day. Recharge time is also acceptable to me for a vehicle that returns home every day. If it's your only vehicle, I agree more range and faster recharge are an improvement for long trips.
 
The business model was the creation of the gas stations, they were owned by oil companies starting close to the turn of the previous century
and they did brutally well. At first they put them everywhere because cars did not have very great fuel range.
taxation does well too
 
if they made them the size of a soda can they could dispense them out of pop machines :|
 
They will never sell the technology if people can not confidently fuel the things for the foreseeable future.
 
The Nissan Leaf is a poor example, because that's the vehicle that taught the industry that battery packs require active thermal management. And yet, buy a brand new Nissan Leaf today, and it still doesn't have it. Battery-pack life on vehicles that have proper thermal management (which nowadays includes just about everything else on the market) has been good. It's good enough that if you worry about battery-pack life on an EV then you should equally be worrying about transmission life on a combustion-engine vehicle, because that's another really-expensive finite-life complicated assembly that will put a vehicle more than a few years old in the junk pile when it fails, and an EV doesn't have one. (OK they have a single-speed reduction gearbox but there's hardly anything to break in those. No clutches, no gearshift mechanisms, no bands, etc.)

Battery-swapping? Tesla tried it. The Model S has (had?) that capability designed in. They built a small number of battery-swap stations for owners to use. People didn't use them. Now they don't have it. If you can fast-charge while having a coffee on a road trip, you don't need battery-swapping.

Charging station availability is only going to improve over time. I've said many times that my next daily-driver crapbox is going to be an EV. I now know where I can fast-charge on the way to and from Windsor: there's a (non-Tesla) fast-charging station at a big PetroCan station, at 401 exit 199 on the south side, and there's a Timmies and an A&W in the complex. I need 400 km range to get from that spot to Windsor and back (actually a little less, because the places I have to go are not all the way to km 0 at the border). That's doable with vehicles that you can get today. If just one other charging station shows up somewhere between there and Windsor, it won't even be cutting it close. If I can plug in while at my customer's site (which is highly likely), it won't be cutting it close, either.
 
"transmission life on a combustion-engine vehicle" :unsure:
Never had one fail or even need repair, but I mostly run standard shift transmissions.

I put a heavy duty clutch in a Ford van once, that was a bad idea, I should have left the original in place, it just made it harder to depress the clutch pedal.

... and I won't ever be buying an electric motorcycle unless it has a clutch and a transmission with at least 2 speeds.
 
Trials said:
"transmission life on a combustion-engine vehicle" :unsure:
Never had one fail or even need repair, but I mostly run standard shift transmissions.

I put a heavy duty clutch in a Ford van once, that was a bad idea, I should have left the original in place, it just made it harder to depress the clutch pedal.

... and I won't ever be buying an electric motorcycle unless it has a clutch and a transmission with at least 2 speeds.
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Why do you need a clutch and 2 speed transmission? Those were introduced to overcome limitations of ICE that dont apply to EV.

Torque can be infinitely varied from minus hundreds of ft-lbs to plus hundreds of ft-lbs. They could rig up a virtual clutch if you wanted two hand control (not quite sure on the logic programming for that one but I think it could be worked out). Having a real clutch to dump would still be much different than ICE as the rotating inertia stored in the electric motor is much lower.


2 speed transmission may matter if you want a high top speed but EVs range is crushed at high speed.
 
GreyGhost said:
Why do you need a clutch and 2 speed transmission? Those were introduced to overcome limitations of ICE that dont apply to EV.

Torque can be infinitely varied from minus hundreds of ft-lbs to plus hundreds of ft-lbs. They could rig up a virtual clutch if you wanted two hand control (not quite sure on the logic programming for that one but I think it could be worked out). Having a real clutch to dump would still be much different than ICE as the rotating inertia stored in the electric motor is much lower.


2 speed transmission may matter if you want a high top speed but EVs range is crushed at high speed.
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To begin with, when a motor is not spinning it has no gyroscopic effect. ... Try standing stationary on a trials bike with the motor spinning, now try it with the motor not running.

Next is the speed with which you can spin up the motor, and the rear wheel. With a clutch that burst of energy can be controlled from near instantaneous full on to all off with only the flex of your left index finger. No way will I ever give that up because some engineer figured out that electric motors produce full torque at any speed.

Lastly I need to be able to ride the thing without needing to relearn anything.
 
Trials said:
"transmission life on a combustion-engine vehicle" :unsure:
Never had one fail or even need repair, but I mostly run standard shift transmissions.
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I haven't, either (couple clutches over the years, though), but in general, transmission failure is one of the more common mechanical reasons for a car to end up on the junk pile.

Outside of the Nissan Leaf, battery-pack failure on an EV is roughly same-order-of-magnitude nature of failure as transmission failure on a combustion engine vehicle, and I will grant excluding Nissan CVTs from this discussion, since the Nissan Leaf's battery-pack crappiness is allowed to offset a Nissan anything-else CVT crappiness.
 
Brian P said:
I haven't, either (couple clutches over the years, though), but in general, transmission failure is one of the more common mechanical reasons for a car to end up on the junk pile.

Outside of the Nissan Leaf, battery-pack failure on an EV is roughly same-order-of-magnitude nature of failure as transmission failure on a combustion engine vehicle, and I will grant excluding Nissan CVTs from this discussion, since the Nissan Leaf's battery-pack crappiness is allowed to offset a Nissan anything-else CVT crappiness.
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So the lesson of the day is don't buy Nissan. They suck at everything. Possible exclusion for the GTR.
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