Grounds to File 11b? | GTAMotorcycle.com

Grounds to File 11b?

D

digitalmemories

New member
I'd like to know whether filing an 11b has a chance of holding up at trial.

Background Info
  • Received ticket for speeding in York in a 50kmh zone $323.00 (not sure what I was going at and dont have the original ticket - submitted to the clerk). August 18th 2018
  • Filed option to fight ticket in trial. August 31st 2018
  • Received in mail notice of trial date. Dated Nov 1st 2018
  • Trial Date: August 12, 2019

Included in the notice of trial was a disclosure request form. I have not contacted the prosecutors since receiving this notice in the mail because (1) I do not want to mess anything up until knowing all my options/consequences and (2) at the time could not afford paralegal services.

After reading through some threads on fighting a ticket myself...
http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforu...-you-want-to-fight-your-ticket-in-court-(new)
http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforu...eding-ticket&p=1950171&viewfull=1#post1950171

And several threads recommending the services of Forch, I plan to now:
  • Request disclosure by fax and email
  • Begin filing an 11b citing my a year minus 12 days between filing for trial and my trial date.

My questions are:
- Would the JP consider the 11b?
- Would the fact that I waited 4 months (nov, dec, jan, feb) before requesting disclosure somehow imply that I accepted the prosecutors delay?
- Should I rather rely on the services of a legal rep instead of fighting it myself?

Thanks in advance.
 
I looked into this few years ago (actually more like 7 or 8 ) 12 to 18mths is considered "normal" in the GTA. Mileage would vary outside of the GTA on what they consider an acceptable amount of time
 
IIRC there was a case that established a reasonable timeframe. As stupid as it is, I think less than a year is considered reasonable for a traffic ticket :/ (i think itnwas 14 or 18 months in the case).
 
Yes, less than year is NOT, going to get an 11b ruling.

Keep on the crown for the disclosure, if need be send a request every 2 weeks, (I am assuming you believe there is something within the disclosure that will provide you with an out)??

Showing up the day of the trial and advising the JP you haven't received disclosure, won't get the charge tossed as the crown will just hand it to you then. Your fighting a speeding ticket so IF your lucky the JP "MAY" give you 5 - 10 minutes to review it. Now if it were a murder charge and the crown failed in it's duty to provide disclosure is a whole different kettle of fish.

For a speeding ticket disclosure is likely only to include what notes the officer made, (as long as he/she is going to be relying upon them to provide their evidence. If the officer isn't using their notes then "technically" the crown has no obligation to provide same. It "may" also include info of the speed device used, (again assuming you were caught via radar or lidar).

IF the cruiser had dash cam, it will NOT be provided, again unless the crown plans to enter it as evidence.

As for using a paralegal, It really is up to you, there are VERY VERY few good ones. Most will simply go in and the crown will agree to lowering the speed, (lower fine, BUT, if you already have a few driving convictions, they likely won't. IMHO unless you get one of the VERY few who will actually mount a VIABLE defence in your case, your simply throwing good money after bad. A GOOD paralegal won't be able to advise you prioperly until you have your disclosure and they have read it.

Not sure how it is that you can't recall how fast you were going this only happened a few months ago, most people would be to recall MANY of the details especially the MOST important one, how fast you were going...lol

Now, the other thing to consider, is you either didn't attend the first meeting with the crown, were they likely, (again unless you have a number of previous convictions), would have offered a lower speed, in exchange for a guilty plea, or you outright rejected the offer. So, IF the officer lowered the speed roadside, (you were going 49 km over and the officer dropped it to 35 km over), now when you go to trial, the charge WILL be amended back to the original speed. This is of GREAT concern if you were going anything more than 50 over, the crown "COULD" ask for an amended charge and go after you for sect 172, (stunt
driving). IF convicted of 172, you will have avoided the impound for 7 days, BUT the crown could ask for the licence suspension and of course the MUCH higher fine.

So first thing I would do is HUNT for the original ticket, and REMEMBER what speed you were advised you were going when stopped!!!
 
Cool first post.

OP: (Since you seem to be new to the internet; OP means "original poster"... that's you) There is this thing on the internet called GOOGLE. Google is the place for stupid questions, like this one.
Put your mouse icon, usually a little arrow, over top of the following blue text and click the LEFT button on your mouse
http://lmgtfy.com/?iie=1&q=Grounds+to+File+11b?
A new window will open with more blue text. Using your mouse, click on ANY of the "links" (blue text) which will have answers to your questions. Simple.

Contrary to what others have said in this post, there is no minimum time limit on an 11B. To make a successful 11B motion you must convince the court that the delay in your court case has unreasonably prejudiced you. Guidelines say 18 months for provincial charges, 24 months for federal charges.
 
Speaking from personal experience, make sure you serve/file your 11.b., properly. Show up in a suit and be polite. Prosecutors can use their discretion, to withdraw the ticket. Having said that, the new norm is 18 months for provincial offences (up from 9-11 months). That means, if it's been 18 months or more, and there's no reason for the delay, the ticket is gone. I don't think prejudice plays anymore, into it.

OP - if the prosecutor calls your bluff, you may lose on the 11.b. But try anyway. You never know. In my case, the prosecutor decided to withdraw the ticket.
 
You were going pretty fast in a 50 zone - unsure what your plan is other than win by technicality. You're likely best off getting a ticket fighter/lawyer and paying upfront to get someone who has the skills to win this for you, rather than rely on what ppl say to do on the internet.
 
hedo2002 said:
Yes, less than year is NOT, going to get an 11b ruling.

Keep on the crown for the disclosure, if need be send a request every 2 weeks, (I am assuming you believe there is something within the disclosure that will provide you with an out)??

Showing up the day of the trial and advising the JP you haven't received disclosure, won't get the charge tossed as the crown will just hand it to you then. Your fighting a speeding ticket so IF your lucky the JP "MAY" give you 5 - 10 minutes to review it. Now if it were a murder charge and the crown failed in it's duty to provide disclosure is a whole different kettle of fish.

For a speeding ticket disclosure is likely only to include what notes the officer made, (as long as he/she is going to be relying upon them to provide their evidence. If the officer isn't using their notes then "technically" the crown has no obligation to provide same. It "may" also include info of the speed device used, (again assuming you were caught via radar or lidar).

IF the cruiser had dash cam, it will NOT be provided, again unless the crown plans to enter it as evidence.

As for using a paralegal, It really is up to you, there are VERY VERY few good ones. Most will simply go in and the crown will agree to lowering the speed, (lower fine, BUT, if you already have a few driving convictions, they likely won't. IMHO unless you get one of the VERY few who will actually mount a VIABLE defence in your case, your simply throwing good money after bad. A GOOD paralegal won't be able to advise you prioperly until you have your disclosure and they have read it.

Not sure how it is that you can't recall how fast you were going this only happened a few months ago, most people would be to recall MANY of the details especially the MOST important one, how fast you were going...lol

Now, the other thing to consider, is you either didn't attend the first meeting with the crown, were they likely, (again unless you have a number of previous convictions), would have offered a lower speed, in exchange for a guilty plea, or you outright rejected the offer. So, IF the officer lowered the speed roadside, (you were going 49 km over and the officer dropped it to 35 km over), now when you go to trial, the charge WILL be amended back to the original speed. This is of GREAT concern if you were going anything more than 50 over, the crown "COULD" ask for an amended charge and go after you for sect 172, (stunt
driving). IF convicted of 172, you will have avoided the impound for 7 days, BUT the crown could ask for the licence suspension and of course the MUCH higher fine.

So first thing I would do is HUNT for the original ticket, and REMEMBER what speed you were advised you were going when stopped!!!
Click to expand...

If disclosure is provided on the day of the trial, it would still be a good idea to request an adjournment/reschedule in order to be able to prepare an adequate defence. A whole 10 minutes is far from adequate time and could be grounds enough for appeal of a conviction. Not a guarantee, but....

*EDIT* I should have added that your first move should be to state that The Crown failed in their obligation to provide the requested disclosure in a timely manner and move for dismissal, then on from there if denied.
 
Last edited:
Rob MacLennan said:
If disclosure is provided on the day of the trial, it would still be a good idea to request an adjournment/reschedule in order to be able to prepare an adequate defence. A whole 10 minutes is far from adequate time and could be grounds enough for appeal of a conviction. Not a guarantee, but....
Click to expand...
I went through this exact situation once.
  1. I filed 11b and disclosure prior to trial
  2. when called up i asked for case to be dismissed on the basis i never received disclosure
  3. crown played the 'i never sent a request' card
  4. when i provided copies of dated letters with registered mail receipts the crown 'suddenly' found the request at the bottom of her paperwork
  5. she asked for permission to have the cop go into the hall and review his notes with me, JP agreed
  6. in the hall i told the cop to go fly a kite
  7. when i got called up again i told the JP 10 minutes in the hall is not an adequate length of time to prepare a defense. the crown has had almost a year to build a case, why did they infringe on my rights and not provide disclosure when asked?
  8. JP asked crown how they wish to proceed and the crown asked for an adjournment
I later won this but the point here is, you don't want to be the one asking for an adjournment. Put the ball in their court every time because now you`re successfully building a case for 11b. Force them to be the one answering the JP, make them responsible for moving forward.

GL!
 
Evoex said:
I went through this exact situation once.
  1. I filed 11b and disclosure prior to trial
  2. when called up i asked for case to be dismissed on the basis i never received disclosure
  3. crown played the 'i never sent a request' card
  4. when i provided copies of dated letters with registered mail receipts the crown 'suddenly' found the request at the bottom of her paperwork
  5. she asked for permission to have the cop go into the hall and review his notes with me, JP agreed
  6. in the hall i told the cop to go fly a kite
  7. when i got called up again i told the JP 10 minutes in the hall is not an adequate length of time to prepare a defense. the crown has had almost a year to build a case, why did they infringe on my rights and not provide disclosure when asked?
  8. JP asked crown how they wish to proceed and the crown asked for an adjournment
I later won this but the point here is, you don't want to be the one asking for an adjournment. Put the ball in their court every time because now you`re successfully building a case for 11b. Force them to be the one answering the JP, make them responsible for moving forward.

GL!
Click to expand...
Not all heroes wear capes - great advice.
 
I agree that 10 minutes is NOT sufficient time to prepare an adequate defense, and in a perfect world, the JP "SHOULD" toss the charge, BUT, in the real world, (especially GTA area courts), it seems to have become the "standard".

It certainly, is grounds for an appeal, But again in the real world is one likely to spend countless hours, and a substantial amount on legal fees, to "win" a $323 ticket?

As a previous poster correctly responded, if at ALL possible, force the crown's hand on any adjournments, that way they count towards an 11b application. If the defendant is the one requesting the adjournment, (in most but not all circumstances), it will NOT be applied towards an 11b application.

Again OP, good luck, let us know the results, Enquiring minds want to know...lol

Rob MacLennan said:
If disclosure is provided on the day of the trial, it would still be a good idea to request an adjournment/reschedule in order to be able to prepare an adequate defence. A whole 10 minutes is far from adequate time and could be grounds enough for appeal of a conviction. Not a guarantee, but....

*EDIT* I should have added that your first move should be to state that The Crown failed in their obligation to provide the requested disclosure in a timely manner and move for dismissal, then on from there if denied.
Click to expand...
 
hedo2002 said:
I agree that 10 minutes is NOT sufficient time to prepare an adequate defense, and in a perfect world, the JP "SHOULD" toss the charge, BUT, in the real world, (especially GTA area courts), it seems to have become the "standard".

It certainly, is grounds for an appeal, But again in the real world is one likely to spend countless hours, and a substantial amount on legal fees, to "win" a $323 ticket?

As a previous poster correctly responded, if at ALL possible, force the crown's hand on any adjournments, that way they count towards an 11b application. If the defendant is the one requesting the adjournment, (in most but not all circumstances), it will NOT be applied towards an 11b application.

Again OP, good luck, let us know the results, Enquiring minds want to know...lol
Click to expand...

In this world it's not the $323.00 ticket that you're fighting, it's the $2000.00 increase to your insurance on a second "minor" conviction.
 
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