Asian Small Bikes...what do they cost to build?

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CafeRay

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Found this on Alibaba, the site for Asian factory wholesaling.

http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=motorcycle+

These 250s are being sold around $1000-1200, which means they are being built for far less than that. Many factories feature independent German QC.

Some are branded, makes you wonder how much markup there is by the time they hit dealerships.

Dual discs, inverted forks, panniers...


http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2014-latest-250cc-KTM-cool-design_1981856860.html


(I'd post pics but ironically the Alibaba site doesn't allow image referencing)

Links may not work, just go to alibaba and search motorcycle

http://www.alibaba.com/Motorcycles_pid1203
 
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mxs said:
LOL ... whatever that means, right?
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It means an independent company is charged with the quality standards of the plant, and could be liable for any quality issues.
Besides, in modern manufacturing, quality issues are typically found at the design stage, not the actual manufacturing stage, as skilled labor is pretty much out of the equation in making automotive products. A foreign engineer will typically push the envelope to make a part as cheaply as possible, and if the design fails, they blame the manufacturer (but keep right on working with that manufacturer).

These cheap bikes are used for daily primary transportation in many parts of the world and often see many more miles than the toys we use in North America. I'm wondering how many of those parts are migrating to $12,000 bikes.
 
Problem is getting a parts network set up for them. All mechanical things break and they need cheap, accessible parts for repair. Canadian Tire tried selling Chinese bikes for awhile but they stopped because they couldn't get parts support. In Canada you have to sell parts for a new vehicle for 10 years after its manufacture.
 
CafeRay said:
It means an independent company is charged with the quality standards of the plant, and could be liable for any quality issues.
Besides, in modern manufacturing, quality issues are typically found at the design stage, not the actual manufacturing stage, as skilled labor is pretty much out of the equation in making automotive products. A foreign engineer will typically push the envelope to make a part as cheaply as possible, and if the design fails, they blame the manufacturer (but keep right on working with that manufacturer).

These cheap bikes are used for daily primary transportation in many parts of the world and often see many more miles than the toys we use in North America. I'm wondering how many of those parts are migrating to $12,000 bikes.
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You really do sound like an expert in the field. What's your background if you don't mind me asking?

And you truly believe that any company would leave someone from a third party company to control QC in their factory??
 
I wouldn't trust anything with any appreciable level of sophistication or technology that is made in China unless it was purchased through a western company with a major brand name.

Quality certificates or certifications from China are worth exactly the value of the piece of paper that they are printed on and not one cent more.

To a western company, selling an electric appliance with a CSA mark on it means what it is supposed to ... you have to obtain all the technical requirements of the applicable CSA standards and perform all of the relevant tests prescribed by those standards, and upon successful completion, you are authorized to sell that appliance with the CSA compliance marking on it.

To a Chinese company, selling an electric appliance with a CSA mark on it means you make up a tool that prints the CSA mark and you print that marking on the appliance. It makes no difference whether it actually complies, and then when someone's house catches fire because of that appliance, you escape being sued because the cheapskate (or, often, the unsuspecting victim) in Canada who bought that appliance is unable to have any recourse.

I know that not too long ago, someone who was bringing in cheap made-in-China motorcycles to the US market got busted by the EPA because the bikes did not meet the emission standards that they claimed.

Consumer Reports had an issue a while back in which some off-brand made-in-China car tires that they tested which performed poorly, ended up being counterfeit and the US-based distributor would not take responsibility for them.

The Honda CBR150, which is a close cousin of the CBR125, sells in Thailand where it is made, for somewhere near C$2000.

I have some customers who have plants in China. Their production equipment is built here, and they have people over there watching all the time to make sure there are no shenanigans. That's the only way you can get China Inc to produce quality products ...
 
mxs said:
You really do sound like an expert in the field. What's your background if you don't mind me asking?

And you truly believe that any company would leave someone from a third party company to control QC in their factory??
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I guess you haven't heard of ISO standards. Most manufacturers in Canada/US use them. When you see "ISO 9001" on the side of building, it means they are certified to manufacturing and management standards. This is a third party company. It is very common, and now the norm.
 
Brian P said:
I have some customers who have plants in China. Their production equipment is built here, and they have people over there watching all the time to make sure there are no shenanigans. That's the only way you can get China Inc to produce quality products ...
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And there are companies that do this.
Taiwan came into carbon fiber technology in the early 2000s because the layup labor was cheaper, but within ten years, they now make almost all the high-end carbon fiber bike frames for European brands, and they lead the world in the technology and have the best reputation for quality. (before I get flamed, Taiwan is China)
People forget, but in the early days, Toyotas and Hondas were considered jokes as cars.
 
Roadghost said:
Problem is getting a parts network set up for them. All mechanical things break and they need cheap, accessible parts for repair. Canadian Tire tried selling Chinese bikes for awhile but they stopped because they couldn't get parts support. In Canada you have to sell parts for a new vehicle for 10 years after its manufacture.
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99% of what "Canadian" Tire sells is Chinese. Supercycle is Chinese, and they are still made in China, with Chinese parts. I wouldn't put my worst enemy on one of those, but CDN Tire wants them made and delivered for under $75.
 
CafeRay said:
I guess you haven't heard of ISO standards. Most manufacturers in Canada/US use them. When you see "ISO 9001" on the side of building, it means they are certified to manufacturing and management standards. This is a third party company. It is very common, and now the norm.
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ISO pretty much just means you're good at bullshitting and don't mind paying your employees to do buttloads of extra documentation.
Basically it's just say what you do and make some records to prove it. It's easy to fudge the records and on top of that if you say you make crap, and then make crap, you'll still get ISO. Not that there's anything much better.

CafeRay said:
99% of what "Canadian" Tire sells is Chinese. Supercycle is Chinese, and they are still made in China, with Chinese parts. I wouldn't put my worst enemy on one of those, but CDN Tire wants them made and delivered for under $75.
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Most of the stuff they sell at Canadian Tire is barely a step above the stuff you find at the dollar store but it costs 10x as much. I pretty much only shop there for disposable things and oil. They can't even get tires right and it's in the name.
 
CafeRay said:
I guess you haven't heard of ISO standards. Most manufacturers in Canada/US use them. When you see "ISO 9001" on the side of building, it means they are certified to manufacturing and management standards. This is a third party company. It is very common, and now the norm.
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Sure, but a Chinese company without western oversight will just print a label saying that it meets whatever standard that their foreign customer wants, without actually taking the underlying actions that the standard specifies.
 
SOOO much wrong info in this thread. CSA inspections are done in China by third party companies that the Canadian importer pays for. Yes it gets bogus stickers at times, and CSA does random off the shelf spot checks in Canadian stores. They will walk into a TSC store and pull a pressure washer off the shelf and the fines are huge if its faked.
I'm attached to this industry right now, I do product evaluation for two Canadian importers of power tools.
There are rules about how many yrs of inventory you need to carry, its an accountants number and good luck finding any manufacturer carrying 10yrs of every part, Polaris personal watercraft anybody? Its a moving target at best.
The reason places like CTC get into and out of Chinese motor product is not replacement parts , its finding warranty service centers that can fix and then warranty the product. A Yamaha or Honda knockoff motor will not likely have the same life as an original.

You need to bear in mind the Chinese can and do build for BMW, Honda and Benz and will build to whatever quality level you will pay them for. But you get what you pay for.
 
^ Your situation is an example of what can happen when a Canadian importer/retailer brings in and sells cheap goods with improper certifications.

The person who buys a supposedly "CSA approved" (or take your pick of other certifications) apparatus on Alibaba and has it shipped directly from China to their house bypasses all possibility of CSA (or whoever) enforcing their standards. There is no retailer to complain to when it doesn't work, gives them an electrical shock, or catches fire. There's no importer that will take responsibility for the claims made. Canada Customs doesn't open every box and verify that the contraption being shipped into the country conforms to our standards.

The direct-retailing route means there will be no independent auditing at the manufacturer in China.
 
crankcall said:
You need to bear in mind the Chinese can and do build for BMW, Honda and Benz and will build to whatever quality level you will pay them for. But you get what you pay for.
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Yep. And I like to point out the converse ... you don't get what you don't pay for!
 
Something to consider when looking at Alibbaba , the market they service is ENORMOUS compared to Canada and you can sell knockoff bikes that meet no EPA, CSA or whatever other inspection would keep it out of our market into most of Asia and Africa and parts of South America. The other part Chinese manufacturing is famous for is taking a mainstream discontinued model and selling a version for ever into the third world. A version of the Yamaha RD350, 1970 technology is still made and sold into India.
US border agents have been known to turn around motorhomes with Chinese dirtbikes and outboards in tow, you don't get to operate those toy in the US even though it was purchased into Canada.
You can see DeWalt, Bosch and "brand you never heard of" being assembled in the same factory in China. But one gets a Jacobs chuck, roller bearing and a $12 battery, the other gets a chuck, bushings and a $3 battery. Its the same casing they just change color plastic in the molder.
 
Canadian Tire stopped selling the Chinese bikes because they lost money and lacked the expertise at store level to support the sale of such a piece of equipment. Consumers expected Honda level quality of the product despite the cheap prices. When there was a problem with the product, the customer would return to the store for help but staff were unable to assist with expertise. Parts were readily available but the average customer of CT was looking for "service" not parts, and CT was not setup (nor the USA based supplier, to service the product. Thus Canadian Tire got out of the business and in the end destroyed over a million dollars worth of inventory rather than discount it to sell it since it would have only made the situation worse.

Roadghost said:
Problem is getting a parts network set up for them. All mechanical things break and they need cheap, accessible parts for repair. Canadian Tire tried selling Chinese bikes for awhile but they stopped because they couldn't get parts support. In Canada you have to sell parts for a new vehicle for 10 years after its manufacture.
Click to expand...
 
Brian P said:
Sure, but a Chinese company without western oversight will just print a label saying that it meets whatever standard that their foreign customer wants, without actually taking the underlying actions that the standard specifies.
Click to expand...

Bingo ....

On top of that, I have some experience in dealing with third party certification companies, reputable ones and have to say they left me at times wondering .... in another words, I always thought it as a gross conflict of interest to pay a company large some to do your audit. Do you think they would get the same contract next year, if they didn't pass the audited subject? They always pointed out only the cosmetic crap which costs nothing to fix .... that was not in manufacturing, but rather service oriented company though.
 
CafeRay said:
99% of what "Canadian" Tire sells is Chinese. Supercycle is Chinese, and they are still made in China, with Chinese parts. I wouldn't put my worst enemy on one of those, but CDN Tire wants them made and delivered for under $75.
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I meant those cheap motorcycles they were selling a few years ago, not bicycles. Canadian Tire was one of the last holdouts selling Canadian made bicycles BTW. They had to go Chinese after CCM closed up.
 
crankcall said:
You need to bear in mind the Chinese can and do build for BMW, Honda and Benz and will build to whatever quality level you will pay them for. But you get what you pay for.
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Pretty sure most VW and Audi parts are made in China these days, as well.
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