Used car sanity check

[TwistedKestrel]

I feel a little less dumb now. Apparently GM submitted it to the EPA as running on regular, but actually tuned it for 91. It's annoying to me because if they had run the EPA test cycle on premium then the numbers would be higher (i.e. more useful for determining relative fuel costs).

 

[Evoex]

Okay don't laugh, but I just learned I made a critical mistake about this model - it takes premium gas. Yes yes, "it's a high output turbo 2.0 4, what did you expect" - I swear that I had checked this before and it took regular. Combined with the mileage that I know that it gets, it just killed my interest in it. I will stop being coy and post the link - it's a manual 2013 Cadillac ATS:

2013 CADILLAC ATS 2.0T ~MANUAL, FULLY CERTIFIED WITH WARRANTY!!! | Cars & Trucks | City of Toronto | Kijiji

Welcome to First Choice Motors, the largest car dealership in Toronto of pre-owned cars, SUVs, and vans priced between $5000-$15,000. With an impressive inventory of over 300 vehicles in stock, we are dedicated to providing our customers with a vast selection of affordable and reliable options...

www.kijiji.ca

Can't stand the dash on those things.

 

[TwistedKestrel]

Can't stand the dash on those things.

The microwave buttons? I would prefer tactile buttons but I could have lived with it

 

[GreyGhost]

Okay don't laugh, but I just learned I made a critical mistake about this model - it takes premium gas. Yes yes, "it's a high output turbo 2.0 4, what did you expect" - I swear that I had checked this before and it took regular. Combined with the mileage that I know that it gets, it just killed my interest in it. I will stop being coy and post the link - it's a manual 2013 Cadillac ATS:

2013 CADILLAC ATS 2.0T ~MANUAL, FULLY CERTIFIED WITH WARRANTY!!! | Cars & Trucks | City of Toronto | Kijiji

Welcome to First Choice Motors, the largest car dealership in Toronto of pre-owned cars, SUVs, and vans priced between $5000-$15,000. With an impressive inventory of over 300 vehicles in stock, we are dedicated to providing our customers with a vast selection of affordable and reliable options...

www.kijiji.ca

It looks like it is 91 recommended not required. Feed it 89 and you may find it behaves. Feed it 87 and it is reliable but changes maps and reduces power (and with the turbo and manual it may be quite sensitive to bad decisions and fall on its face often).

As for the "brand-new" all season tires. Right now it has "observe" snow tires on it. Those wouldnt be my choice for a sport sedan.

 

[High Flya]

Good to see another manual acolyte here!

If it seems dodgy it probably is. Every car I've ever owned (8 and counting) have been used. I've never bought from a dealer, but have test-driven plenty from dealers. I've never had a dealer refuse to let me test drive a car. At most, the salesperson would come along with you. If they don't want you to test it, or take it to a shop of your choosing for an inspection, then I can only assume there are some serious issues with the car. I wouldn't trust 3rd party after-the-fact warranties as all you'll get is the run-around once you have problems.

I have no 1st hand experience with GM turbo ecotecs, but I've heard nothing but bad news about them, especially when they are on the higher mileage side. If this was one you're buying from a long-term owner with fairly complete maintenance history, then it's a different story, but I doubt the dealer have any service history for you. Turbo motors in general need oil changes to be on-time (and with good oil), neither of those are guaranteed here.

Unless you need a car urgently, I think a less sketchy one will come along as (just like bikes), we're starting into the selling/buying season.

 

[Evoex]

The microwave buttons? I would prefer tactile buttons but I could have lived with it

Nope, just the way the layout is, the font, everything.

Edit: I guess I should be specific, or it comes across as 'dashboard'

 

[TwistedKestrel]

It looks like it is 91 recommended not required. Feed it 89 and you may find it behaves. Feed it 87 and it is reliable but changes maps and reduces power (and with the turbo and manual it may be quite sensitive to bad decisions and fall on its face often).

As for the "brand-new" all season tires. Right now it has "observe" snow tires on it. Those wouldnt be my choice for a sport sedan.

It actually has the one "observe" and three RT43s. RT43s are good tires, I like them, but they are dated 2017 and would be getting replaced.

 

[TwistedKestrel]

Nope, just the way the layout is, the font, everything.

Edit: I guess I should be specific, or it comes across as 'dashboard'

View attachment 66809

Oh I absolutely don't mind that, GM has cooked up worse layouts. At least it has real gauges!!!

 

[ifiddles]

@TwistedKestrel if you're not looking for a ton of power, but something with a manual, why not look at a 2013 Hyundai Elantra GT...I've had mine since new and it's been a great car...lots of room as it's a hatchback version and has some pep (although not much)...has a ginormous sunroof which is awesome in the summer...check them out...

 

[Hardwrkr13]

It doesn't need to be safetied to be test driven, dealer plate ins will cover that. It's sketchy and I'd pass. Private seller not allowing a test drive I can see for theft/crash/etc reasons but not a dealer. Like others stated, third party warranty claims aren't something you want to have to deal with.
I'd pass.
My friends car has the 2.0T and he bought it low mile and used from a GM dealer. Turbo went out in under a year. It's now on turbo #3 and he's put 100,000km on it and he maintains it at the GM dealer and it's just a commuter. Some are great, others not so much, just like any car.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I feel a little less dumb now. Apparently GM submitted it to the EPA as running on regular, but actually tuned it for 91. It's annoying to me because if they had run the EPA test cycle on premium then the numbers would be higher (i.e. more useful for determining relative fuel costs).

I had a Saturn with that same drivetrain pulled really well I always ran it on regular and never had an issue. It had a warning in the owner's manual something about regular was fine but for maximum performance use premium.

Sent from the future

 

[nakkers]

I’d probably run mid grade fuel and see what fuel economy vs performance.


Similar price point and just as rare manual, I’ve driven a Passat CC for the same vintage IIRC, 2013. Essentially a 4 door coupe. Looks great and excellent highway cruiser. Searching for a clean example is hens teeth.


I always find a cheapness to GM products whereas VW seems more upscale. Just perception of course.

 

[Mad Mike]

It doesn't need to be safetied to be test driven, dealer plate ins will cover that. It's sketchy and I'd pass. Private seller not allowing a test drive I can see for theft/crash/etc reasons but not a dealer. Like others stated, third party warranty claims aren't something you want to have to deal with.
I'd pass.
My friends car has the 2.0T and he bought it low mile and used from a GM dealer. Turbo went out in under a year. It's now on turbo #3 and he's put 100,000km on it and he maintains it at the GM dealer and it's just a commuter. Some are great, others not so much, just like any car.

GM Ecotec engines are great provided they are maintained properly. The turbochargers are good, the flaw is a small oil line that feeds them. Same for VVT (P0014), they are lubricated and controlled by pressure from a small oil line prone to clogging if the engine is poorly maintained.

You cannot use conventional oil, the cars need synthetic. You should max at 6500km between changes otherwise sludge begins accumulating in the tiny lines feeding VVT and Turbo. Starve the turbo and it gets hot and expands, the manifold starts leaking and eventually cracks. Chinese replacements are good for a year, a proper OE replacement should be good for the life of the car. Starve the VVY and the exhaust camshaft wears leading to rough running and degraded performance.

You can't blame owners. If you own an Ecotech, you'll the car monitors intervals for oil changes. Under factory warranty, it will call for an oil change at 6-7000km. When the warranty expires, the computer stretched out changes to >12000km on both my Cruzes. I just checked the computer, it's showing me 92% oil life remaining 1090km since the last change -- it's trending to 13750km before asking for an oil change (way too long).

For added measure, I group in slurp of seafoam into the oil 100km before each oil change. Don't know if this helps or not, but I don't see sludge anywhere and I've never replaced a turbo.

 

[backmarkerducati]

It is not uncommon for some used car dealers to not complete the safety items until the car is sold. There could be many negative reasons but on their side....how long the safety is good for vs how long it sits on the lot and the TVM of repairs that are done when it then sits for six months.

As it looks like you are coming from out of town this may not help but a good policy is to have your mechanic (or a dealer if newer) do a PPI before you buy. If the seller says no, run sprint away.

 

[TwistedKestrel]

It is not uncommon for some used car dealers to not complete the safety items until the car is sold. There could be many negative reasons but on their side....how long the safety is good for vs how long it sits on the lot and the TVM of repairs that are done when it then sits for six months.

As it looks like you are coming from out of town this may not help but a good policy is to have your mechanic (or a dealer if newer) do a PPI before you buy. If the seller says no, run sprint away.

This is what I don't get about this line of thinking - I think we all can agree that there is a cost to having a car sitting on your lot unsold, so the savings of not having to possibly safety the car twice seems like a false economy to me. For a car like the one we're talking about, you're going to have to spend the money on repair/refurbishment anyway (unless it goes to auction). If you spend the money upfront, you get the benefit of a more marketable/attractive car - it becomes easier to sell, no?

 

[GreyGhost]

This is what I don't get about this line of thinking - I think we all can agree that there is a cost to having a car sitting on your lot unsold, so the savings of not having to possibly safety the car twice seems like a false economy to me. For a car like the one we're talking about, you're going to have to spend the money on repair/refurbishment anyway (unless it goes to auction). If you spend the money upfront, you get the benefit of a more marketable/attractive car - it becomes easier to sell, no?

Some dealers may do the work but not issue the certificate until sales paperwork is signed. This makes sense to me.

As you brought up though, after hanging out for a while, they may decide to send the vehicle back to auction. I doubt the work done to make it able to safety adds anything to the price achieved at auction as buyers will assume it needs work.

Also, by delaying, you can give the buyer some input. I would not want ShinYang tires on my car but if they give me a $500 credit towards Michelins, I would go that way.

The pessimist in me thinks they may do a terrible job at refurb after you buy the car. Glue the windshield crack or replace with the cheapest possible chinese windshield etc. If you looked at the car and it had a rippled windshield, there is no way you'd buy it but after you have signed the paperwork and it has passed a safety, you don't have an easy out.

They may also be running purely on cashflow and prefer to have more ok cars instead of fewer good ones ready to go. Your deposit pays for the work to safety your car.

 

[backmarkerducati]

This is what I don't get about this line of thinking - I think we all can agree that there is a cost to having a car sitting on your lot unsold, so the savings of not having to possibly safety the car twice seems like a false economy to me. For a car like the one we're talking about, you're going to have to spend the money on repair/refurbishment anyway (unless it goes to auction). If you spend the money upfront, you get the benefit of a more marketable/attractive car - it becomes easier to sell, no?

Not defending the practice but it seems pretty common these days even from dealers with good ratings.

-Many used car "dealers" do not have in-house mechanics that can certify the vehicle so paying over and over for the safety every 30 days is a cost issue. Obviously not the case for all.
-Someone may want to swing an as-is deal and certify themselves.
-They may sell it to another dealer to clear the inventory.
-Buyer may notice other non-safety items and want those fixed, they don't want to send it to outside mechanic twice.
-TVM if inventory does not move, cash flow.
-OMVIC rules regarding as-is and certified in advertisements may make it easier to do it this way (no idea, just seeing a pattern)?
-Of course shifty reasons and maybe other less shifty ones I do not know about. It is common these days, one can always exclude dealers that do it this way, my guess is that will reduce the pool of vehicles dramatically at certain price points. I find it is more common for smaller used car dealers but I have had large dealers do the same thing.

Even if the car was all fixed up and ready, PPI will still hopefully find both safety and non-safety items. PPI has saved me and my friends multiple times. Cars that test drove with no noted issues or bad sounds. Blown and leaking headgaskets, emission codes cleared by seller, rotted/failing subframe on a certified car from dealer (my mechanic noted, "at least they could have filled it with bondo and sprayed it with undercoating...just lazy"), bad clutch, major leaks, vacuum leaks, etc.

 

[TwistedKestrel]

Minor update:

-It's not a third party warranty, they handle it themselves, which is surprising
-They will not entertain an as-is offer
-Unsurprisingly they are not willing to specify what they would be sourcing as brakes/tires

I would be lying if I said I wasn't still thinking about it though. Currently there are four manual ATS for sale in the province:
-This one
-A blue one that has been reflashed (hard pass)
-A green wrapped one with tinted windows and other silly blackout stuff ($$ to untint and unwrap, and who knows what the wrap could be hiding - might have had other modifications)
-A grey one that seems okay... in Ottawa

 

[TK4]

FWIW, when I was shopping about a year and a half ago, some of the used car shysters wanted $600-700 over the asking price for the safety. Uh, no...

 

[Hardwrkr13]

GM Ecotec engines are great provided they are maintained properly. The turbochargers are good, the flaw is a small oil line that feeds them. Same for VVT (P0014), they are lubricated and controlled by pressure from a small oil line prone to clogging if the engine is poorly maintained.

You cannot use conventional oil, the cars need synthetic. You should max at 6500km between changes otherwise sludge begins accumulating in the tiny lines feeding VVT and Turbo. Starve the turbo and it gets hot and expands, the manifold starts leaking and eventually cracks. Chinese replacements are good for a year, a proper OE replacement should be good for the life of the car. Starve the VVY and the exhaust camshaft wears leading to rough running and degraded performance.

You can't blame owners. If you own an Ecotech, you'll the car monitors intervals for oil changes. Under factory warranty, it will call for an oil change at 6-7000km. When the warranty expires, the computer stretched out changes to >12000km on both my Cruzes. I just checked the computer, it's showing me 92% oil life remaining 1090km since the last change -- it's trending to 13750km before asking for an oil change (way too long).

For added measure, I group in slurp of seafoam into the oil 100km before each oil change. Don't know if this helps or not, but I don't see sludge anywhere and I've never replaced a turbo.

Chatted with him yesterday and he had inquired about the issue at a dealer closer to his work which told him the 14 Cruze Turbo's (his year) had a run of bad turbos due to bad bearings.
I agree on having to use full synthetic oil and keeping oil intervals lower but depending on your driving habits. If you've got a turbo and you're driving conditions have you in boost a lot and you're shutting down quickly (cooking your oil) for sure stay closer to the 6500k. My driving is mostly 15min trips with almost all of it not being in boost so I go a bit longer.
I'm into trucks these days with a new turbo on on order. Here's a video I recently watched that features the inside guy developing the new Hurricane engines: See from the 36:10 mark for oil relevancy.