Used car sanity check

[TwistedKestrel]

Consulting with my favourite bunch of experts on everything about this potential purchase.

I travelled into the GTA today to look at a used car. I don't wanna get too specific because even though I feel this specific vehicle would be beneath most of you, I don't wanna get sniped on it. It is a GM vehicle with the 2.0 turbo Ecotec and a six speed manual. It is unusual in that it is completely stock - I have passed up other examples in the past because the windows are tinted, they have stupid wheels, they have been flashed, etc.

Here's the bit I'm mulling over. The vehicle is being sold as safetied, with new tires, oil change, one month "warranty" - but that work doesn't get performed until AFTER you buy it. For example, in my opinion the windshield has a substantial crack in it and should not pass a safety. The salesperson suggested that it would get replaced, along with any other potential issues. I pulled a code from it, P0014 (MIL on) and mentioned that as well - salesperson said that would get dealt with too. I was not permitted to test drive the car - they said it's because their cars aren't certified until they're sold. I'm not sure that makes sense (I have definitely test driven unfit cars being sold by dealers before) but it probably does save them a bundle on insurance.

Here is my question: does this business model make sense? They are selling a used car, promising to bring it up to a condition, but it is obviously not currently in that condition. They have presumably budgeted for the cost of tires/oil change, I dunno about replacing a cam phaser and windshield though. They are a fairly large used car dealer, so seemingly they are doing this every day.

Also seems like their OMVIC license has lapsed, I dunno if that's a paperwork problem or nuclear red flag or what.

Edit: Later on in the thread I reveal it's a 2013 Cadillac ATS 2.0T, being sold by First Choice Motors in North York

 

[GreyGhost]

Consulting with my favourite bunch of experts on everything about this potential purchase.

I travelled into the GTA today to look at a used car. I don't wanna get too specific because even though I feel this specific vehicle would be beneath most of you, I don't wanna get sniped on it. It is a GM vehicle with the 2.0 turbo Ecotec and a six speed manual. It is unusual in that it is completely stock - I have passed up other examples in the past because the windows are tinted, they have stupid wheels, they have been flashed, etc.

Here's the bit I'm mulling over. The vehicle is being sold as safetied, with new tires, oil change, one month "warranty" - but that work doesn't get performed until AFTER you buy it. For example, in my opinion the windshield has a substantial crack in it and should not pass a safety. The salesperson suggested that it would get replaced, along with any other potential issues. I pulled a code from it, P0014 (MIL on) and mentioned that as well - salesperson said that would get dealt with too. I was not permitted to test drive the car - they said it's because their cars aren't certified until they're sold. I'm not sure that makes sense (I have definitely test driven unfit cars being sold by dealers before) but it probably does save them a bundle on insurance.

Here is my question: does this business model make sense? They are selling a used car, promising to bring it up to a condition, but it is obviously not currently in that condition. They have presumably budgeted for the cost of tires/oil change, I dunno about replacing a cam phaser and windshield though. They are a fairly large used car dealer, so seemingly they are doing this every day.

Also seems like their OMVIC license has lapsed, I dunno if that's a paperwork problem or nuclear red flag or what.

Super dodgy. I wouldnt sign anything ironclad until I was happy with the deliverable.

 

[jc100]

Consulting with my favourite bunch of experts on everything about this potential purchase.

I travelled into the GTA today to look at a used car. I don't wanna get too specific because even though I feel this specific vehicle would be beneath most of you, I don't wanna get sniped on it. It is a GM vehicle with the 2.0 turbo Ecotec and a six speed manual. It is unusual in that it is completely stock - I have passed up other examples in the past because the windows are tinted, they have stupid wheels, they have been flashed, etc.

Here's the bit I'm mulling over. The vehicle is being sold as safetied, with new tires, oil change, one month "warranty" - but that work doesn't get performed until AFTER you buy it. For example, in my opinion the windshield has a substantial crack in it and should not pass a safety. The salesperson suggested that it would get replaced, along with any other potential issues. I pulled a code from it, P0014 (MIL on) and mentioned that as well - salesperson said that would get dealt with too. I was not permitted to test drive the car - they said it's because their cars aren't certified until they're sold. I'm not sure that makes sense (I have definitely test driven unfit cars being sold by dealers before) but it probably does save them a bundle on insurance.

Here is my question: does this business model make sense? They are selling a used car, promising to bring it up to a condition, but it is obviously not currently in that condition. They have presumably budgeted for the cost of tires/oil change, I dunno about replacing a cam phaser and windshield though. They are a fairly large used car dealer, so seemingly they are doing this every day.

Also seems like their OMVIC license has lapsed, I dunno if that's a paperwork problem or nuclear red flag or what.

I had the same thing once. Turned out the car was a US import and had been in an accident. The Toyota “dealer” (shifty little smug idiot) said “buy the car and we’ll sort everything out for you” (including the wrong speedo dial!).

We walked away.

So, I’m not sure what was going on here. Maybe the car was on consignment from somewhere else and the dealer wanted to see if they could get a guaranteed sale before putting the effort into fixing the defects. No idea. All I know is that the car wasn’t that cheap and was priced as if there were less issues than there were.

 

[jc100]

Just thought of something. If you have a month warranty you’re going to be in a race to find any issues before that deadline. Don’t use the AC until it gets warmer and you might have a surprise etc.

It sounds shifty.

 

[AllistonGT]

Consulting with my favourite bunch of experts on everything about this potential purchase.

I travelled into the GTA today to look at a used car. I don't wanna get too specific because even though I feel this specific vehicle would be beneath most of you, I don't wanna get sniped on it. It is a GM vehicle with the 2.0 turbo Ecotec and a six speed manual. It is unusual in that it is completely stock - I have passed up other examples in the past because the windows are tinted, they have stupid wheels, they have been flashed, etc.

Here's the bit I'm mulling over. The vehicle is being sold as safetied, with new tires, oil change, one month "warranty" - but that work doesn't get performed until AFTER you buy it. For example, in my opinion the windshield has a substantial crack in it and should not pass a safety. The salesperson suggested that it would get replaced, along with any other potential issues. I pulled a code from it, P0014 (MIL on) and mentioned that as well - salesperson said that would get dealt with too. I was not permitted to test drive the car - they said it's because their cars aren't certified until they're sold. I'm not sure that makes sense (I have definitely test driven unfit cars being sold by dealers before) but it probably does save them a bundle on insurance.

Here is my question: does this business model make sense? They are selling a used car, promising to bring it up to a condition, but it is obviously not currently in that condition. They have presumably budgeted for the cost of tires/oil change, I dunno about replacing a cam phaser and windshield though. They are a fairly large used car dealer, so seemingly they are doing this every day.

Also seems like their OMVIC license has lapsed, I dunno if that's a paperwork problem or nuclear red flag or what.

If you're feeling uneasy then follow your gut. Always other cars around for sale. Take your time.

 

[Evoex]

If your spidey sense is tingly....

I would markup any sales agreement prior to signing.

That being said, plenty of ads online say 'car not fit to drive' etc. So i wouldn't necessarily be surprised that they wouldn't let me get behind the wheel.

 

[TwistedKestrel]

If you're feeling uneasy then follow your gut. Always other cars around for sale. Take your time.

If your spidey sense is tingly....

I mean part of the problem is that I have been taking my time, and sooner or later I'm gonna have to settle for a stupid boring car if I can't find a decent one that I like. The other thing is that I wouldn't say I feel uneasy about it, or rather I am at minimum levels of unease for buying a used car from a dealer.

A personal example of actual unease: I passed over a different vehicle earlier (2011 Cadillac CTS 3.0 V6 manual - a UNICORN) because the way the dealer was going about it was baffling. It was pretty reasonably priced, and it was in very good condition. Like I'm not a licensed mechanic, but I like to think I at least can get by and I could not see a single issue on it other than the driver's heated seat not working. It should have breezed through a safety** (I couldn't be confident about the suspension of course, because it would have to be off the ground for that)

He was not selling it safetied, and he wouldn't let me get it inspected. His dealership was renting space from a building that had a shop that worked on luxury cars in a different unit. It would have been TRIVIAL to get it safetied!!! Honestly if I had found a single significant issue it would have been less suspicious and I probably would have bought it. The car had been listed for about two months before I looked at it, and it was listed for almost three after I looked at it. It came down to this: either the dealer is stupid (and he didn't seem stupid) and the car is actually a great deal, or he was hiding something major.

 

[mimico_polak]

You can't safety a vehicle for sale with a cracked windshield, simple as that. The other items, I wouldn't worry about it.

Put down a small deposit (let's say $500) and if it's a reputable, and large dealership my recommendation is to clearly state on the Bill of Sale:
- New windshield
- New tires (matching front and rear)
- New XXX
- Oil Change
- 1 Month Warranty included in the sale

If they don't want to sign that, walk away. That's literally your only protection besides 'but he told me XYZ'. Put it on paper, and confirm it once you go pick up with the balance of payment.

If your spidey sense is tingly....

I would markup any sales agreement prior to signing.

That being said, plenty of ads online say 'car not fit to drive' etc. So i wouldn't necessarily be surprised that they wouldn't let me get behind the wheel.

The whole 'Car not fit to drive' etc started once dealerships got ruled on to disclose all costs. As such, the 'lower' cost of the car is now $20k (for fun), and the 'safety' is $22k.

So instead of selling a certified / safetied car for $22k, they're now selling it for cheaper, but then just tacking on the safety.

I wouldn't worry about that part. Alternatively, you gain to 'save' 2k and then have your mechanic safety it.

 

[hdsomeday]

Is it a used car dealer or a new car dealership selling this used car?

 

[TwistedKestrel]

You can't safety a vehicle for sale with a cracked windshield, simple as that. The other items, I wouldn't worry about it.

The part about them being on the hook for a windshield seems pretty cut and dry, it just seems like a weird way to run the business to me. But I don't normally shop at dealers so I'm wondering if there's an explanation that makes sense

Is it a used car dealer or a new car dealership selling this used car?

They sell used cars exclusively. They seem to have a LOT of Chevy Cruzes on hand, which is... I mean I guess people buy them! I haven't heard people say a single good thing about them though lol

 

[mimico_polak]

The part about them being on the hook for a windshield seems pretty cut and dry, it just seems like a weird way to run the business to me. But I don't normally shop at dealers so I'm wondering if there's an explanation that makes sense

They sell used cars exclusively. They seem to have a LOT of Chevy Cruzes on hand, which is... I mean I guess people buy them! I haven't heard people say a single good thing about them though lol

Nothing weird about it.

Car stays on the lot for X days. You either pay to have it fixed, and sit there for X-days, or just wait until it's sold.

Same goes if it goes to auction. Dealer will never make their money back on the windshield, so why bother?

Plus, some people will buy a car as is, so what's the point of putting in the effort to fix it?

 

[nakkers]

Personally, I’d like to take a vehicle for a rip before making a commitment. Even if the tires are flat spotted and worn, you can feel how it rides. Does the suspension have any clunks or unhealthy noise. How does the clutch feel, any slipping etc. even the doors seals can be misaligned and allow for wind noise etc. Does the exhaust rattle at a given speed etc.

Sure they give you a month to shake it down but, I’d rather not be the one to work through those nuisances.

 

[Mad Mike]

Consulting with my favourite bunch of experts on everything about this potential purchase.

I travelled into the GTA today to look at a used car. I don't wanna get too specific because even though I feel this specific vehicle would be beneath most of you, I don't wanna get sniped on it. It is a GM vehicle with the 2.0 turbo Ecotec and a six speed manual. It is unusual in that it is completely stock - I have passed up other examples in the past because the windows are tinted, they have stupid wheels, they have been flashed, etc.

Here's the bit I'm mulling over. The vehicle is being sold as safetied, with new tires, oil change, one month "warranty" - but that work doesn't get performed until AFTER you buy it. For example, in my opinion the windshield has a substantial crack in it and should not pass a safety. The salesperson suggested that it would get replaced, along with any other potential issues. I pulled a code from it, P0014 (MIL on) and mentioned that as well - salesperson said that would get dealt with too. I was not permitted to test drive the car - they said it's because their cars aren't certified until they're sold. I'm not sure that makes sense (I have definitely test driven unfit cars being sold by dealers before) but it probably does save them a bundle on insurance.

Here is my question: does this business model make sense? They are selling a used car, promising to bring it up to a condition, but it is obviously not currently in that condition. They have presumably budgeted for the cost of tires/oil change, I dunno about replacing a cam phaser and windshield though. They are a fairly large used car dealer, so seemingly they are doing this every day.

Also seems like their OMVIC license has lapsed, I dunno if that's a paperwork problem or nuclear red flag or what.

You can write conditions that are obvious into your offer.

Check for common problems (Ecotec engines like to eat their $2000 turbos if the wrong oil or oil change intervals are missed, pass if you feel any sludge in the oil). P0014 without P0011 or P0013 is a symptom of a sludgy, poorly maintained engine. A flush might clear it up, or not if the VVT has been oil starved.

Finally, I don’t think OMVIC can lapse - if it does they can’t sell cars. Call OMVIC to check.

 

[ToSlow]

I would run fast and far away from that deal. But that’s just me.

What does your gut tell you to do?

 

[crankcall]

ToSlow and I are of same mind ( one of us should be nervous) , walk away . Unless they are running in the grey zone , none of this sounds accommodating. You can still acquire a nice car, minus the horsepoo


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[Mad Mike]

…

They sell used cars exclusively. They seem to have a LOT of Chevy Cruzes on hand, which is... I mean I guess people buy them! I haven't heard people say a single good thing about them though lol

I’ll say something good about them! First was a 2013, went 250k with ZERO repairs other than tires, brake pads and rotors. Passed safety at 250k needing ZERO. Paid 19k new, sold for 13k 5 years later.

Bought another new in 2018, $22k out the door. Averages 6.6l/100 in 50/50 driving, 5.9 on the highway with AC, 5l/100 if I’m careful. 1 repair under warranty, slave cylinder. Runs like a champ with 180k on the clock, got a few years left.

All Ecotec turbos NEED oil changed every 6500km. Do that, and service brakes properly when you change pads. That’s all they need, you can drive the snot out of them.

 

[TwistedKestrel]

I’ll say something good about them! First was a 2013, went 250k with ZERO repairs other than tires, brake pads and rotors. Passed safety at 250k needing ZERO. Paid 19k new, sold for 13k 5 years later.

Bought another new in 2018, $22k out the door. Averages 6.6l/100 in 50/50 driving, 5.9 on the highway with AC, 5l/100 if I’m careful. 1 repair under warranty, slave cylinder. Runs like a champ with 180k on the clock, got a few years left.

All Ecotec turbos NEED oil changed every 6500km. Do that, and service brakes properly when you change pads. That’s all they need, you can drive the snot out of them.

That is interesting, and I am chalking this up as a valid data point. But you are the FIRST mechanically inclined person I have seen willing to stand up for them. Every other mechnician I see talking about them says to run away, that a Cruze with 200000km on it is a completely used up car.

I would run fast and far away from that deal. But that’s just me.

The needle is actually swinging towards buy. I wanna see if they'll send me the details of the warranty. I definitely have the time to shake out problems and send the car back within a month. I am expecting an average third party warranty, not a gold plated guarantee. It might be enough though

ToSlow and I are of same mind ( one of us should be nervous) , walk away . Unless they are running in the grey zone , none of this sounds accommodating. You can still acquire a nice car, minus the horsepoo

I actually do not care about horsepower at all. I might have 20 years ago, but these days... I feel like they don't make abysmally slow cars anymore. I do not care for a "fast" car (this one isn't) because not only is that useless to me, I have motorcycles for that anyway. I do like a manual transmission though, and they are getting harder to come by. I just don't want a car that feels like it was made for people that hate driving

 

[Mad Mike]

That is interesting, and I am chalking this up as a valid data point. But you are the FIRST mechanically inclined person I have seen willing to stand up for them. Every other mechnician I see talking about them says to run away, that a Cruze with 200000km on it is a completely used up car.
…

I have a Jetta with 180k that has never had a mechanical repair (except for a corrosion body claim) and a Jeep with over 180k that has had 1 wheel bearing and a starter.

I maintain my stuff, changing fluids and filters on time, doing proper service when it’s time for brakes. I’m convinced this works… I typically run my stuff for 10 years trouble free — then the bodies fall off. Have had several cars that went 500km before seeing a major repair.

 

[mimico_polak]

I myself consider any third party ‘warranty’ to be essentially worthless.

Sure if they throw it in, and it happens to cover something that’s awesome…but as a general rule of thumb, third party warranties aren’t worth the paper they’re written on.

 

[TwistedKestrel]

Okay don't laugh, but I just learned I made a critical mistake about this model - it takes premium gas. Yes yes, "it's a high output turbo 2.0 4, what did you expect" - I swear that I had checked this before and it took regular. Combined with the mileage that I know that it gets, it just killed my interest in it. I will stop being coy and post the link - it's a manual 2013 Cadillac ATS:

2013 CADILLAC ATS 2.0T ~MANUAL, FULLY CERTIFIED WITH WARRANTY!!! | Cars & Trucks | City of Toronto | Kijiji

Welcome to First Choice Motors, the largest car dealership in Toronto of pre-owned cars, SUVs, and vans priced between $5000-$15,000. With an impressive inventory of over 300 vehicles in stock, we are dedicated to providing our customers with a vast selection of affordable and reliable options...

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