Riding an e-scooter in Toronto? | Page 6 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Riding an e-scooter in Toronto?

nobbie48 said:
Recently, riding these things, a young lady was killed in Oshawa and the other day a kid in Brampton. How many people have to die before these things get regulated?
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Charges laid in Oshawa death. Failure to yield by the truck. I'm surprised they laid the charge. Crap situation all around. Escooter was riding illegally on sidewalk when they got hit (speed not publicized). Most vehicles pulling out of a driveway don't expect things on the sidewalk at 20 km/h or more (rightfully so). I expected the cops to let this go. Now the truck driver is in an crap situation.

Do you pay the $75 ticket? I would be shocked if the scooter riders family didn't try to go after money in a civil action and paying the ticket makes you at fault in the eyes of insurance (which would be raised in the civil trial). Do you fight the ticket in court and argue that your actions were prudent and the at fault party unfortunately perished in the crash? No winning path. I'd be talking to a lawyer. Truck looks like it belongs to a business. I assume civil action would go after business and driver.

toronto.citynews.ca

Man charged with failing to yield in fatal Oshawa e-scooter crash

A Whitby is facing a failing to yield charge following a cras in Oshawa that killed a young woman riding an electric scooter.
toronto.citynews.ca toronto.citynews.ca
 
GreyGhost said:
Charges laid in Oshawa death. Failure to yield by the truck. I'm surprised they laid the charge. Crap situation all around. Escooter was riding illegally on sidewalk when they got hit (speed not publicized). Most vehicles pulling out of a driveway don't expect things on the sidewalk at 20 km/h or more (rightfully so). I expected the cops to let this go. Now the truck driver is in an crap situation.

Do you pay the $75 ticket? I would be shocked if the scooter riders family didn't try to go after money in a civil action and paying the ticket makes you at fault in the eyes of insurance (which would be raised in the civil trial). Do you fight the ticket in court and argue that your actions were prudent and the at fault party unfortunately perished in the crash? No winning path. I'd be talking to a lawyer. Truck looks like it belongs to a business. I assume civil action would go after business and driver.

toronto.citynews.ca

Man charged with failing to yield in fatal Oshawa e-scooter crash

A Whitby is facing a failing to yield charge following a cras in Oshawa that killed a young woman riding an electric scooter.
toronto.citynews.ca toronto.citynews.ca
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From Google:

Why are there scooters everywhere in Oshawa?

E-scooters are part of the growing 'micro-mobility' sector that increases transportation options for residents and visitors. However, there are also challenges such as parking compliance, enforcement, illegal sidewalk riding, trail user conflict, and potential injuries.

Why are scooters banned in Toronto?

The latest bid to legalize e-scooters comes two years after council decided to ban the small motorized vehicles on city streets, citing safety concerns. But since that debate, the use of the scooters has only grown.

Exit Google

I am under the impression that Oshawa hasn't cancelled the scooter program. Could cancelling it be taken as an admission of an erroneous decision that would involve the city in any settlement?

Toronto says no scooters but there is growing usage and no enforcement.

Re the fatal crash:

Harmony Road is a divided roadway at that point so the truck had to turn right. I haven't been able to find out if the scooter was north or south bound.

If you street view the gas station there are hedges and bushes restricting the north side view when exiting. If the young lady was southbound she could have been hard to see.

The exit from the gas station shows a stop sign and STOP on the pavement at the approximate property line. Did the driver roll through, possibly quickly to catch a break in the traffic?

Summing this up:

We have a housing crisis exacerbated by transit problems. Oshawa is attempting to fix their lack of foresight by allowing anything that moves to run anywhere they want with next to no rules or enforcement. No training, insurance, identification of rider or vehicle is required.

Modifications are common to enhance performance of the vehicles.

The growth rate of the number of these vehicles will create a voting mass that will make it hard to stop further growth.

Driver training is not good. Add to that the number of distractions they see regularly.

Add to that the cell phone focused pedestrians

Add to that the erratic action of unlicensed and untrained vehicle operators.

Add to that the number of parents that teach their children that they are important and everyone is looking out for them.

Sidewalk: A place at the side of the road for a person to walk. The average speed of a walking person is about 4 KPH. As a driver pulls out of a location, crossing a sidewalk, should he have to take into account a vehicle on the sidewalk going 24 KPH? Or the 85 KPH a friend's scooter can attain? (I've given him the lecture)

If a customer steps out of a shop should they take into account that an untrained, self centred person is zipping along the sidewalk at a high rate of speed.

IMO the issue will never be resolved because the housing, employment and public transit issues are so messed up that the only two options the politicians can take are 1) Admit they have made a mess of things and it can't be fixed or 2) Dump the responsibilities and costs on the drivers. If the injuries and deaths are blamed on the "E" crowd it would force action to change the laws and enforcement.
 
I had an e-bike moment yesterday as I checked progress on some local construction. The sidewalk was fenced and slightly restricted due to bridge reconstruction.

As I was walking along the construction zone I heard "Excuse me" from behind and turn to see a female on an E-bike, one you can actually pedal. I politely told her she should be on the road as legislated and got the deer in the headlights look.

I can see her being concerned about her safety riding on the road but if E-bikes can ride on the sidewalk where do pedestrians feel safe?

What if a large group of pedestrians walked on a major street with a following safety car and held up car traffic. The excuse being the sidewalks are no longer safe due to the number of people using the sidewalks in an illegal manner?

Trying to be positive, how much of a motorcycle safety course would apply to E-bikes?

Somewhat sarcastic but reading some of the HTA would be a start. Needing a slightly different M-1 would be fantastic. Same test as for a motorcycle but valid a lot longer, 2 to 5 years for E-bikes only. EM-1 not valid for ICE power. M-1 unaffected.
 
nobbie48 said:
I had an e-bike moment yesterday as I checked progress on some local construction. The sidewalk was fenced and slightly restricted due to bridge reconstruction.

As I was walking along the construction zone I heard "Excuse me" from behind and turn to see a female on an E-bike, one you can actually pedal. I politely told her she should be on the road as legislated and got the deer in the headlights look.

I can see her being concerned about her safety riding on the road but if E-bikes can ride on the sidewalk where do pedestrians feel safe?

What if a large group of pedestrians walked on a major street with a following safety car and held up car traffic. The excuse being the sidewalks are no longer safe due to the number of people using the sidewalks in an illegal manner?

Trying to be positive, how much of a motorcycle safety course would apply to E-bikes?

Somewhat sarcastic but reading some of the HTA would be a start. Needing a slightly different M-1 would be fantastic. Same test as for a motorcycle but valid a lot longer, 2 to 5 years for E-bikes only. EM-1 not valid for ICE power. M-1 unaffected.
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Lsm license makes complete sense. Changing license requirements which are theoretically based on knowledge required to safely operate based on where the dinosaurs are burned requires a level of stupidity that only politicians are capable of rising to.
 
Mad Mike said:
The should make it as simple as gun laws. Caught riding a scooter, it gets impounded then into the shredder.

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In Oshawa and a few other cities there are scooter rental systems in place. If damage to a vehicle can be documented wouldn't the owner of the scooter (The company) be liable?

Small claims court would be the most practical route but does legislation force the use of the car owner's uninsured vehicle coverage?

As a hater of HTA 172 I have to be careful to not punish before judgement. Does that apply to scooter users? Define scooter and the right of police to seize and destroy. It's easier in Toronto as all it requires is the device to have a functioning motor and being used anywhere except private property.

E-bikes with useless pedals: Let the owner decide whether the pedals meet the requirement. Have the owner pedal the thing a bock or two to prove they work, preferably up hill (Sarcasm)

BTW go to YouTube and look up removing speed limiters on E-bikes etc and there are numerous videos.

Edit: Enforcement will have budget consequences and Chow is in deep debt right now so will stick her head in the sand.
 
nobbie48 said:
In Oshawa and a few other cities there are scooter rental systems in place. If damage to a vehicle can be documented wouldn't the owner of the scooter (The company) be liable?

Small claims court would be the most practical route but does legislation force the use of the car owner's uninsured vehicle coverage?

As a hater of HTA 172 I have to be careful to not punish before judgement. Does that apply to scooter users? Define scooter and the right of police to seize and destroy. It's easier in Toronto as all it requires is the device to have a functioning motor and being used anywhere except private property.

E-bikes with useless pedals: Let the owner decide whether the pedals meet the requirement. Have the owner pedal the thing a bock or two to prove they work, preferably up hill (Sarcasm)

BTW go to YouTube and look up removing speed limiters on E-bikes etc and there are numerous videos.

Edit: Enforcement will have budget consequences and Chow is in deep debt right now so will stick her head in the sand.
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Pedals that allow you to move the bike were never part of the definition. My suspicion is Emmo dropped a dumptruck load of money in wynnebags lap. They must be functional, but lifting the wheel in the air and spinning the pedal to make sure the rear wheel moves meets that definition.
 
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GreyGhost said:
Pedals that allow you to move the bike were never part of the definition. My suspicion is Emmons dropped a dumptruck load of money in wynnebags lap. They miss be functional, but lifting the wheel in the air and spinning the pedal to make sure the rear wheel moves meets that definition.
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I hope she doesn't get a job designing parachutes and life jackets.
 
Ebike burned in the subway yesterday. Gave owner second degree burns and took subway train out of service. I highly doubt it was charging on the train which is surprising as charging seems to be the trigger for most fires. Will TTC ban e-vehicles? That would seriously hamper their usefulness as last mile machines. Rate of fires is picking up fast (29 in 2022, 50 in last 2.5 months). If your ebike burns causes tens or hundreds of thousands of damage to a ttc vehicle, is that your bill to pay? You don't have insurance to help you.

My favorite quote:

"Toronto Fire Services district chief Michael Ancio didn’t have further information about the condition of the battery or the e-bike, but noted there’s an increased fire risk if a lithium-ion battery gets on fire."

I agree that a battery on fire is an increased fire risk compared to a battery not on fire. I haven't had decades of training.

toronto.citynews.ca

Toronto subway e-bike fire highlights dangers of incidents involving lithium-ion batteries

An e-bike caught fire on a TTC Line 4 Sheppard-Yonge subway train. Toronto fire officials noted that damaged lithium-ion batteries can ignite.
toronto.citynews.ca toronto.citynews.ca


Edit:
Video of fire. Looks like subway will need expensive remediation. Hopefully news follows up with who foots the bill.

toronto.citynews.ca

E-bike fire on subway sparks safety concerns

An e-bike fire on a subway car is highlighting the dangers of incidents involving lithium-ion batteries. Michelle Mackey is speaking with a witness who caught the ordeal on video and the TTC to see if it's updating its e-bike protocol.
toronto.citynews.ca toronto.citynews.ca

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My wife and I drove past the Oshawa scooter death what I'm guessing is a half hour or so after it happened - pickup truck was still there up on blocks presuably used by the emergency crews.

I suspect the driver will end up being absolved of the worst of the charge given the fact the rider was on the sidewalk and as was mentioned, you don't expect a high speed vehicle to whip in front of you on a sidewalk. Add in the visual obstructions and traffic and yeah, even if you looked, a split second later having something fly in front of you as you're looking the other way to merge into traffic, bad situation.

Having spent some time driving around the area getting to and from work with those stupid scooters everywhere, I wouldn't be upset if they didn't come back next year.
 
PrivatePilot said:
My wife and I drove past the Oshawa scooter death what I'm guessing is a half hour or so after it happened - pickup truck was still there up on blocks presuably used by the emergency crews.

I suspect the driver will end up being absolved of the worst of the charge given the fact the rider was on the sidewalk and as was mentioned, you don't expect a high speed vehicle to whip in front of you on a sidewalk. Add in the visual obstructions and traffic and yeah, even if you looked, a split second later having something fly in front of you as you're looking the other way to merge into traffic, bad situation.

Having spent some time driving around the area getting to and from work with those stupid scooters everywhere, I wouldn't be upset if they didn't come back next year.
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I've tried to analyse what happened to the young lady and would like to know whether she was going north or south.

If headed south, she and the truck driver would have both their visions blocked by hedges or shrubs.

IIRC she was legal age to ride one but is there anything stopping an underage kid from borrowing a friends pass card to go joy riding?

My two cents but the death is grounds for charges of negligence against anyone who had a part in allowing the things.
 
Could be wrong but I believe she was headed south.

I use motorcycling as an example of how this could have gone 2 ways.

All of us here know that cars are out to kill us and do all sorts of stupid stuff around us, even when we're 100% in the right. Of course, as wel get more experienced, we start to have that 6th sense about what cars are going to do around us before it even happens. That car pulling up to the street from a parking lot? Assume they didn't see you and are more likely than not to pull out in front of you. That car sitting at a T junction alongside the higwhay you're clipping along at 80 on? 50/50 they pull out in front of you. Getting passed on the 401 by someone in a hurry? They might be about to miss their exit and might swing in front of you and jam on the brakes. Oncoming traffic with their left signal on? Don't expect they see you and won't turn in front of you, the classic left turn of death - do a SMIDSY maneuvre to be sure.

However, those sorts of skills and senses take *years* to build up and hone.

We all know someone renting one of these scooters have none of these skills and have no idea of all the dangers they're riding past, into, and around, unfortunately. Much like a rookie motorcyclist, sometimes those lack of skills has unfortunate outcomes.
 
nobbie48 said:
IIRC she was legal age to ride one but is there anything stopping an underage kid from borrowing a friends pass card to go joy riding?

My two cents but the death is grounds for charges of negligence against anyone who had a part in allowing the things.
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Like any other conveyance, it can be taken by anyone with access and intent.

I suspect e-anything are used more often than not illegally. The sidewalk feels safer for the rider than the road (until they die).

When they were allowed with restrictions and the deaths are most often caused by ignoring the restrictions, you think the people that created the restrictions should be punished? That seems unreasonable. I like the concept of many of these devices as last-mile or even entire commute solutions but there needs to be some brainpower applied. As a start, Ebikes need to be reduced in weight to <100 lbs as a start to get rid of the dui mobiles. Anything over that weight or if they want to go faster than 32 should be an LSM regardless of power source. Easy change and fits into existing framework. Maybe issue stop sale now (with unyielding enforcement) and start enforcing in the wild in 5 years or so to allow existing users to amortize their stupid vehicle that was allowed at the time. E-anything being ridden on the sidewalk should be immediate seizure and visit with the JP. No need to drag it out. Plead your case now and maybe you get your thing back. If the JP thinks you will do it again, you have lost your thing.

On the fire front, the new subways that are all one gas chamber make these fires far worse. At least before you could evacuate one car and seal it off. Now, there is nowhere to go until the train stops and door opens. Not sure how toxic a burning bike and subway is (eg if you can get 50' away, will you still be in medical distress after a minute or two?)
 
GreyGhost said:
Like any other conveyance, it can be taken by anyone with access and intent.

I suspect e-anything are used more often than not illegally. The sidewalk feels safer for the rider than the road (until they die).

When they were allowed with restrictions and the deaths are most often caused by ignoring the restrictions, you think the people that created the restrictions should be punished? That seems unreasonable. I like the concept of many of these devices as last-mile or even entire commute solutions but there needs to be some brainpower applied. As a start, Ebikes need to be reduced in weight to <100 lbs as a start to get rid of the dui mobiles. Anything over that weight or if they want to go faster than 32 should be an LSM regardless of power source. Easy change and fits into existing framework. Maybe issue stop sale now (with unyielding enforcement) and start enforcing in the wild in 5 years or so to allow existing users to amortize their stupid vehicle that was allowed at the time. E-anything being ridden on the sidewalk should be immediate seizure and visit with the JP. No need to drag it out. Plead your case now and maybe you get your thing back. If the JP thinks you will do it again, you have lost your thing.

On the fire front, the new subways that are all one gas chamber make these fires far worse. At least before you could evacuate one car and seal it off. Now, there is nowhere to go until the train stops and door opens. Not sure how toxic a burning bike and subway is (eg if you can get 50' away, will you still be in medical distress after a minute or two?)
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I just get tired of people crying "Oh my baby" when they are the ones that gave their kid the device that got them killed and failed to teach them any discipline. The morass of what battery powered things are legal and where has to be sorted.

As far as battery fires there is sensationalism from all angles. Nothing burns without altering the chemicals in the substance. A total ban means no cell phones.

A bottle of high proof alcohol burns but needs an ignition source. A battery has internal energy that lights the battery up. On an airline you can only take a small bottle of liquid. Applying that to a TTC vehicle every few blocks is obviously not going to work. Licensing all electric transportation makes it simple if the law is enforced on the street. No licensed vehicles on the TTC except those plated as handicap.

At what size does a battery become an unacceptable risk? Cell phone? Laptop? Hoverboard etc. How about using the TTC to go to Canadian Tire for a lead acid so mom' soccer van will start
 
nobbie48 said:
I just get tired of people crying "Oh my baby" when they are the ones that gave their kid the device that got them killed and failed to teach them any discipline. The morass of what battery powered things are legal and where has to be sorted.

As far as battery fires there is sensationalism from all angles. Nothing burns without altering the chemicals in the substance. A total ban means no cell phones.

A bottle of high proof alcohol burns but needs an ignition source. A battery has internal energy that lights the battery up. On an airline you can only take a small bottle of liquid. Applying that to a TTC vehicle every few blocks is obviously not going to work. Licensing all electric transportation makes it simple if the law is enforced on the street. No licensed vehicles on the TTC except those plated as handicap.

At what size does a battery become an unacceptable risk? Cell phone? Laptop? Hoverboard etc. How about using the TTC to go to Canadian Tire for a lead acid so mom' soccer van will start
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Airplanes have a capacity limit for li-ion batteries (100 watt-hours max for a pack, different limits for loose cells). Ttc could try to do the same thing. I'm sure people would game the system like with DOT stickers on helmets but the reality of the situation is every evehicle would be banned. Leaving an exception for old-school mobility scooters (in most cases expensive and well-engineered with very few fires) makes sense.

In the interest of public safety, Canada could require e-vehicles to have valid compliance certs to be imported or sold (with enforcement that includes immediate seizure of non-compliant stock). That improves safety. It also almost eliminates the cheap Chinese crap that make up the majority of the market though. Is $1000 for a Segway scooter a reasonable last mile solution?
 
GreyGhost said:
Airplanes have a capacity limit for li-ion batteries (100 watt-hours max for a pack, different limits for loose cells). Ttc could try to do the same thing. I'm sure people would game the system like with DOT stickers on helmets but the reality of the situation is every evehicle would be banned. Leaving an exception for old-school mobility scooters (in most cases expensive and well-engineered with very few fires) makes sense.

In the interest of public safety, Canada could require e-vehicles to have valid compliance certs to be imported or sold (with enforcement that includes immediate seizure of non-compliant stock). That improves safety. It also almost eliminates the cheap Chinese crap that make up the majority of the market though. Is $1000 for a Segway scooter a reasonable last mile solution?
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At one time the media was a good source of local information. The media being newspapers. It took time and money to print them, putting a value on the content.

Now media includes social sources including YouTube. Search YouTube for battery fires and you get a lot of hits. Look closer and many are the same event, the event is years old and the location remote but the fear is generated that your quality batteries are going to burn your house down. Any reasonably adept YouTuber can copy and paste a regurgitated version of an old event to record a few "Likes"

If all high performance batteries were subject to the same scrutiny as firearms the toy market would disappear.

Standard Operating Procedures for Li-ion car fires are a problem. Make, model and year need to be known. With ICE you secure the fuel tank and 12 volt lead acid battery. The battery is typically under the hood but there are few exceptions.

What vehicle has the worst reputation for fires, an EV or a Ford Pinto. For years pickup trucks had the gas tank behind the drivers seat. Things evolve.

If you drop your helmet you scrap it. If you drop your Li-ion battery should you scrap it?
 
On the e-bike fires I think we hit a few problems.

First, cheap unregulated batteries and chargers in most of these bikes.
Second, extra large capacity (of the above) to allow these over heavy "bikes" to be speed unlimited and run like a motorcycle for extended distances.

Both increase risk IMO. True pedal assist only, lower max speed limits for these devices, smaller batteries, and proper regulation of the batteries (not just a fake CSA sticker) I bet solves a lot of problems. Comparably, how many Lithium power tool batteries (vs e-bikes) are out there not burning houses down.
 
some consideration for the bigger picture is necessary as well, let's keep it in perspective – in reality there are probably tens if not hundreds of thousands of e-bikes and the sort in Toronto. There's been 1 big fire.

There's a risk of getting into the anti-EV argument that because they burst into flames every now and then that they need to be demonized. The same thing happens to regular cars and trucks but it's just considered a "meh, just a car fire" event and everyone moves on. But something with a battery catches fire and its front page news.

Remember when Samsung phones were bursting into flames randomly? Did we ban phones on the subway as now many are demanding of E-bikes?

I'm not saying some better quality standards needs to be adhered to when it comes to these things, but I think the approach needs to be proportional to the actual size of the issue at hand.
 
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