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Inching towards killing the moto industry in the GTA

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One of the patterns that make me chuckle in all this is the number of new riders that don't mind financing the bike AND gear, especially at the retarded rates dealer finance charges, and yet squawk about insurance premiums. This too is a part of your insurance profile, in terms of a fraud risk (bad credit/bankrupt people pay attention), and it is not just for the replacement of your bike. As sad as it may be, someone in a given income bracket being over their head with what has to be the dumbest finance deal on earth, has all the reason in the world to file a bogus claim.
As a side note, maybe an insurance specialist can chime in, but is hopping from one company to the next every year going to have any ill effects? Reason I ask, is that although I have had some stand alone bike policies elsewhere over the years, I have one company that has insured my car since '88, and they currently offer very competitive rates on my bikes that they won't even insure for anyone else. Case in point; I was selling a bike a while back to a friend, and we both have the same insurance company. He was older, riding longer, etc although only with that company for a couple years. But when called for a quote, they would not insure the bike for him at all, even though it was insured by them at the time on my policy. Either way, I'm at a grand a year total for two bikes in a high premium postal code, and the one bike actually came down this renewal (1200 trophy). I guess loyalty might actually pay off.
 
happycrappy said:
One of the patterns that make me chuckle in all this is the number of new riders that don't mind financing the bike AND gear, especially at the retarded rates dealer finance charges, and yet squawk about insurance premiums. This too is a part of your insurance profile, in terms of a fraud risk (bad credit/bankrupt people pay attention), and it is not just for the replacement of your bike. As sad as it may be, someone in a given income bracket being over their head with what has to be the dumbest finance deal on earth, has all the reason in the world to file a bogus claim.
As a side note, maybe an insurance specialist can chime in, but is hopping from one company to the next every year going to have any ill effects? Reason I ask, is that although I have had some stand alone bike policies elsewhere over the years, I have one company that has insured my car since '88, and they currently offer very competitive rates on my bikes that they won't even insure for anyone else. Case in point; I was selling a bike a while back to a friend, and we both have the same insurance company. He was older, riding longer, etc although only with that company for a couple years. But when called for a quote, they would not insure the bike for him at all, even though it was insured by them at the time on my policy. Either way, I'm at a grand a year total for two bikes in a high premium postal code, and the one bike actually came down this renewal (1200 trophy). I guess loyalty might actually pay off.
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Try calling them up for a quote on the same bike. I've had companies black-list a bike that I owned. They still insured me while I had it, but I sold it, and then was going to buy it back a couple of years later, and it was black-listed by them, so they wouldn't insure it.

Oh, and some people finance the insurance costs for the first year as well,
along with the bike and gear. I don't know what they plan on for the 2nd year.
 
Baggsy said:
I don't know what they plan on for the 2nd year.
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Many people don't plan for anything anymore aside from "I really want that, right now". Not just motorcycles...everything.

RV's are a good example. Saw so many people over the years that bought brand new RV's, thought nothing of dropping $50K at a dealership "because it's only $249/month!". 2 years later the shine has worn off or they realize camping wasn't really for them.. and they come to the shocking reality that they might get $25K for it, while still owing $49,700 on it still because they're paying a 8% dealership interest rate. Then they realize that loan they signed is for 30 freakin years (360 months didn't sound that bad...) to get that "cheap" payment . Had a relative buy a used RV from exactly this sort of guy about 5 years ago and the seller is surely still making payments on the original debt to this day.
 
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PrivatePilot said:
Many people don't play for anything anymore aside from "I really want that, right now". Not just motorcycles...everything.

RV's are a good example. Saw so many people over the years that bought brand new RV's, thought nothing of dropping $50K at a dealership "because it's only $249/month!". 2 years later the shine has worn off or they realize camping wasn't really for them.. and they come to the shocking reality that they might get $25K for it, while still owing $49,700 on it still because they're paying a 8% dealership interest rate. Then they realize that loan they signed is for 30 freakin years (360 months didn't sound that bad...) to get that "cheap" payment . Had a relative buy a used RV from exactly this sort of guy about 5 years ago and the seller is surely still making payments on the original debt to this day.
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This is sadly such a true tale, in the US where mortgage interest is deductible, potential RV owners get pressured to use a secured line of credit (really a mortgage) to finance the dream. Yikes. Yachts, RV's , fishing cabins, everything.
They do it here, without deductions being possible. Cheap interest rates have a second cost..........
 
Well I ride with a bunch of retirees and they ride slow cruisers that dont have much value.

They could spend their time in other hobbies I suppose but, a lot of them have clean driving records, no claims and seeing ther insurance rates increase by 30% to %60 percent.

These aren't old buzzards that need to get their license reviewed every two years either.

When you start hitting the hobby with increases like this, it forces some to get out.

Good, responsible riders leaving the market because the cost of insurance is getting too high.






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Maybe the school system should replace algebra with retail math. Might save a whole lot heartache. Still, nobody forced them to sign anything and being that dumb is sometimes incurable.

Although not blameless, insurance companies are quietly watching through your GoPro. They see the massive amounts of d-baggery and are making adjustments. The motorcycle industry in Canada will be fine though. It's always been a niche market (2% of vehicles in Ontario, IIRC) and that's not going to change thanks to the climate, El Nino notwithstanding. How expensive that market gets is up to us as a group. If we need to speed on 200hp bikes and post the vanity to Youtube, then yeah, prices are going up.
 
People aren't blind. How many times have you buzzed an off duty cop, a judge, an insurance executive, a politician, a justice of the peace, etc that you didn't even know about? You thought it was just a guy in a good suit. Except the off duty cop, he was prolly sporting a Dunnville dinner jacket. They remember.
 
Hi

Are there any numbers of motorcycle registrations for Ontario ?

I googled but I couldn't find any.. I am in Quebec and here are our numbers:

2011 : 130 337
2012 : 146 896
2013 : 155 115
2014 : 161 086
2015 : 179 082
There was a huge drop in the number of plated bikes when the costs of registration went up through the roof around 2008. 2014-2015 as you can see saw a big jump in numbers. I am hearing that this is primarily by guys buying bikes who are in their 20's. I am curious to see this year's numbers. They say the millennials aren't into motorcycles and cars but the 2015 numbers don't bare that out in regards to motorcycles.

Also keep in mind that getting your license in Quebec is a PITA. 9hrs of theory classes, then a written exam. Then another 18hrs of practical in a parking lot, then 4hrs out on the road.. then a closed circuit exam. This gets you to the kicker, for the following 11 months, you can now only ride with someone else who's had their license for 2+ years.. It's this part of the law that keeps a lot of riders away. Rumours are that this part of the law will be changed soon.. But we are all still waiting. It costs about $1050 to take your classes and exams to get your license. This is also a barrier to entry.

Here in Quebec, for my 2003 600cc Bandit, I pay $567 to register it and another $200 or so to insure it (both sides). My 2015 KTM 350 EXC, I pay $400 to register it and $200 or so to insure it (both sides). The costs are per year of course.

Super Sports of course are another thing entirely. There the costs go through the roof. A super sport is now $1300 to plate and most likely insurance will be $1000.

In the downtown core of Montreal, I mostly see scooters, then regular bikes like my Bandit or some older BMW.. We have a bike night here every Thursday and it is wall to wall SS bikes being ridden by guys in their 20's. Head out into the country and it's baby boomers riding Harley's. Tons of them.

For Quebec, I wouldn't say things are that bad. The numbers are increasing and at a pretty good rate too. I think that has a lot to do with a lot of newer bikes in the lower cylinder range becoming available. I saw a lot of 300cc bikes this past summer.

As for riding in the winter, we can't ride from December 15 until March 15. However, you can get an exemption that lasts 1 week. You are entitled to 4 exemptions per bike. I own two bikes, so in theory hat's two months of winter riding..

But truth is, once the snow falls here in this city, it generally stays down until March. Yes there are exceptions, but generally speaking, that's the way it is. So the law is annoying, but not _that_ bad.. especially with the exemption that you can get online.

The first bikes to get stored here are SS. They generally get stored Sept 1. The reason for this is that the government will return 18% (IIRC) of the total cost of your registration if you put your registration on ice as of Sept 1. Then after that the regular bikes usually last until November, and then it's the hard core scooter riders who often ride to the bitter end.

Most people start storing their bikes because it's either too cold or often say in my case, because once the snow hits, it doesn't go away. As I live in the city, I don't have a garage. So I can't just push my bike through the snow into the garage. I have to ride it someplace. So there's always this fear you will get caught out and have to hire a truck to come get it..

Given this year's weather, I think Spring will be early and I plan on printing out my exceptions. ;-)

All the best from Montreal. Home of the Habs that couldn't buy a win.

J
 
Good write up:thumbup: Habs were cleaning up like shampoo, now they are real poo.
 
Quebec insurance seems quite a bit cheaper than Ontario. My twin brother in Montreal pays significantly less than I do - we got licensed within 2 months of each other and we both ride 600cc standards/non-SS bikes. He pays $750 for full coverage (plates + private insurance), I pay $950 for liability only.

Also, I hear that the requirement to be accompanied for the first 11 months is widely ignored.
 
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Matt Rain said:
Also, I hear that the requirement to be accompanied for the first 11 months is widely ignored.
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I got my license in August of 2015. So I went from the end of summer 2014 to most of 2015 debating about what to do. The forums in QC are full of people asking who's gone riding while being a learner without a baby sitter (if you will).

If you get caught, the worst that can happen is you will get 4 points, pay $400 and have your bike impounded. You can pick up your bike and take it home the next day IF you show up with someone who has 2yrs experience or if someone else with a full license does it for you. There's an impound fee to pay every day.

Now, I have heard all various versions on this. Some got caught, got a fine but didn't have their bike towed.. etc, etc. In QC and I assume also in Ontario, cops have plate scanners. There's usually a cop at the end of most of our bridges. They scan the plates of the cars and if the plate is registered to someone who is a learner it beeps in the cop car. The cop then scans to see if you are alone and if you are... Woop ! Woop !

The guy I bought my bike from, told me when he was a learner, he rode every day by himself. He got caught, was fined $400 and lost 4 points but the cop told him to ride straight home. He did, and he continued to ride every day alone. I asked him if he was worried about getting nailed again and his reply was "what are the chances of getting caught twice"?

I'm a chicken ****. So I rode around my block a few times. If a cop pulled me over, I was going to tell him that I needed to move the bike as I was no longer in a legal parking zone (which was usually true). Worst case, he would give me the fine and the points but I couldn't see him actually towing me as I would be at worst 200m from my house.

So generally speaking, most people I know obeyed the law.. But Chicken ***** tend to hang out with chicken *****....
 
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It's a ridiculous requirement.

Ontario is at the other extreme - way too permissive. One can technically write their M1 then hop on a Hayabusa. Insurance is a big dissuading factor but I assume that there are lots of moneyed types who have done just that.
 
nakkers said:
Well I ride with a bunch of retirees and they ride slow cruisers that dont have much value.

They could spend their time in other hobbies I suppose but, a lot of them have clean driving records, no claims and seeing ther insurance rates increase by 30% to %60 percent.

...

When you start hitting the hobby with increases like this, it forces some to get out.
Click to expand...

The problem I see with that statement is this - the old guys on cruisers are almost always those with the biggest disposable incomes. A 30% increase (or hell, even a 50% increase) on a policy that might only be $750-$1250K/year to begin with is NOT going to be the breaking point for anyone in this situation, trust me - if it is, they weren't really interested in riding to begin with or were just dabbling with ownership, and were looking for an excuse to get out anyways. They won't be happy about it, but they will pay it if they're serious riders.

And secondly, the guys in that situation (older cruiser guys with clean records), that are seeing a sudden increase in their policies this year are likely SF or TD, and a quick phone call to a competitor almost always yields at least an equal, if not BETTER rate than what they were paying after the fact.

Matt Rain said:
It's a ridiculous requirement.

Ontario is at the other extreme - way too permissive. One can technically write their M1 then hop on a Hayabusa. Insurance is a big dissuading factor but I assume that there are lots of moneyed types who have done just that.
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Exactly what I was going to say, you stole the words right out of my mouth. The 11 month babysitting period in QC just seems stupid in form and function to me, specifically when enforcement is a virtual crapshoot, but it still doesn't stop the young and wealthy from doing the same thing in the end - going and buying a bike that's 100x too much for them and going riding with someone else who might have the required 2 years experience but is a total yahoo.

I think something in the middle where year 1 riders are CC limited would make a heck of a lot more sense.
 
What does this crap really matter?
Let's get real.
If the insurance companies had a big problem they would have forced the govt. to implement graduated bikes...everyone starts on a 250 cc.

As for the endless comments about the riding styles of some ppl on ss bikes....oh well...they bought a ss for the SUPER and SPORT.
Bikes are dangerous, take the TTC or walk.

Ride your bike how you want, slow or fast as hell...it's your choice....just don't kill anyone else. You can kill yourself just not anyone else.
Problem solved.
 
PrivatePilot said:
The problem I see with that statement is this - the old guys on cruisers are almost always those with the biggest disposable incomes. A 30% increase (or hell, even a 50% increase) on a policy that might only be $750-$1250K/year to begin with is NOT going to be the breaking point for anyone in this situation, trust me - if it is, they weren't really interested in riding to begin with or were just dabbling with ownership, and were looking for an excuse to get out anyways. They won't be happy about it, but they will pay it if they're serious riders.

And secondly, the guys in that situation (older cruiser guys with clean records), that are seeing a sudden increase in their policies this year are likely SF or TD, and a quick phone call to a competitor almost always yields at least an equal, if not BETTER rate than what they were paying after the fact.



Exactly what I was going to say, you stole the words right out of my mouth. The 11 month babysitting period in QC just seems stupid in form and function to me, specifically when enforcement is a virtual crapshoot, but it still doesn't stop the young and wealthy from doing the same thing in the end - going and buying a bike that's 100x too much for them and going riding with someone else who might have the required 2 years experience but is a total yahoo.

I think something in the middle where year 1 riders are CC limited would make a heck of a lot more sense.
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I don't think insurance rates should be charged based on disposable income.

I'm just thinking about the basics. Clean record, no claims history, low risk.

Ontario rates appear to be increasing exponentially for riders across the board.

I worked in the industry for a very long time. I get it.

But, I'm also a rider. And I don't like what I'm hearing.

Companies being sold and merged to lower operating cost and improve revenues.

But I think they are losing sight of the impact to the overall market.

Motorcycles are a hobby and seasonal.

But it's still a sizeable market and an important one at that.








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