HighSide at Mosport - Aug 17 | Page 5 | GTAMotorcycle.com

HighSide at Mosport - Aug 17

I am one of the Ninja 300 racers and here is my point of view:

I did Monday and Tuesday track days last week. Since I had never been to the track before I was told I should be in green group. We were also told to only pass on the straights. But after a session or two I was having to park it in every corner to avoid running over most bikes out there. I tried to switch groups but was told I couldn't. Again, there is no way in hell I'm passing a 600 or 1000 on the straight on a 36HP bike. So I'm supposed to spend my $300 track day putting around. After asking again to change groups and again being told I can't it was suggested I make the passes around the outside. So the rest of the two days I passed tones of bikes and was much better. This was way safer than having to slam on the brakes to not plow into someone. Never divebombed anyone though. Made many of these passes right in front of marshals and was never an issue.

Next year I'll be in yellow for sure.
 
Brian P said:
Also ... Stop changing gear so much!

On my FZR400, which has waaaayyyy less torque, 4th gear around corner 9 and 10 all the way around 1, 2, 3, 4, only one downshift to 3rd going up the hill at the entrance to 5, then upshifts to 6th on the straight. Corner 8 is accelerating full throttle past the bridge only backing off at the turn-in point, no downshift (and I realize that you won't be able to do that on something with more top speed!), 2 downshifts (to 4th) for corner 9. Total downshifts per lap: 3. Total upshifts per lap: 3. For the whole section of track between corner 9 and the uphill entrance to 5, in 4th gear, the engine is between 10,000 and 14,000 rpm the whole time. If there is traffic that slows me down or forces me to square off corner 10 (coming onto the front straight) I may drop down to third there.

On a bigger bike you will probably be a gear lower than that everywhere aside from the back straight, and you will have one downshift and some braking at the end of the back straight.

You should definitely not be downshifting for corner 1, or 2, or 4.
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Good observations and thank you for the detailed info, I have not been to this track but definitely Plan to next year.


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i remember coming around turn 10 and see you sprinting across the track in a limp. i had figured you highsided.. hope youre alright
 
Here is the video. At 10:16 you can see one of passes I did not agree with. Was held up every lap by traffic and crashes but never did I put another rider at risk.

[video=youtube;b3CSfQn_L1I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3CSfQn_L1I[/video]
 
Ethereal said:
Here is the video. At 10:16 you can see one of passes I did not agree with. Was held up every lap by traffic and crashes but never did I put another rider at risk.

[video=youtube;b3CSfQn_L1I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3CSfQn_L1I[/video]
Click to expand...

wow that was close. also thats me in front of you lined up lmao
 
Ethereal said:
Here is the video. At 10:16 you can see one of passes I did not agree with. Was held up every lap by traffic and crashes but never did I put another rider at risk.

[video=youtube;b3CSfQn_L1I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3CSfQn_L1I[/video]
Click to expand...

Wow. That was nuts. Too close man. They should have yanked him from the track.

Thanks for posting this up so the "others" can see.
 
If they mix people into the wrong groups, say no passing in corners, and then allow passing in corners, doesn't that open them up to personal liability?

I understand that they want to make as much money as possible, but they should have at the very, very least set some standards for who could pass at corners, so that people would expect it.

Some of the better riders here have discussed the possibility of running right over newbies who didn't keep a line at track days, a couple of years ago.
 
I didn't watch the entire video of the OP, just skipped around through it a bit... what I did see was a pass way way way outside the op while the op was off line to the inside. Was 100% totally safe. OP, your not a little crossed up, your really crossed up. Pay attention to your line and your riding, a few have mentioned it but looking around you is a big no no! Even when you know where a guy behind you it is useless information because you shouldn't be adjusting for them, its unpredictable and unsafe. One more thing, get your body into position entering the corner, try not to adjust that position -especially lifting and changing where your butt is on the seat- mid corner, it upsets the bike. Go into the corner already set up and gently roll on throttle through it, don't chop. Do this until your amazing at it! Your crash was probably a mix of track surface and how leaned over you are for that pace, it sucks but chalk it up to a learning experience.

Ethereal, I see the pass your talking about in your video... ya it was close, ya it was inside and fine it was against the rules. He should have gone outside you too. He definitely wasn't in the dirt. But consider this.... he passed you much much faster, he committed to that line before he even saw that corner, fast riders are turning into 4 long before they see it. It is possible he wasn't expecting traffic mid corner that much slower than him and it would have been sketchy to try and change his line to pass outside. If he got on the brakes he likely would have taken you out trying to slow to your pace. The last time he saw you and the other bike you probably looked to be a similar pace to his, he just kept his speed through the corner. His pass was also in no way unsafe, just closer and faster than your used to. Next time deal with things like that after the session, shaking your fist at him on track didn't do anything... focus on riding!

It should be common knowledge that last week the track days will have racers in the mix, especially Thursday! The small bikes are in a crap situation, the racers are above the pace of novice track day groups, but when they get thrown in the faster groups with the bigger bikes they are just as much a hazard there because the closing speeds get crazy. If they were moved the organizers would just have a bunch of moaning and complaining intermediate/advanced riders on their hands! And it isn't reasonable to expect them to throw away the day parking the bike in corners when they are there to learn and practice for a race weekend.
 
That was not right, pass from the inside of the corner. What group is it? Green/yellow/red?


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Oh and this trump card of "he passed me and then crashed up the track" is odd to me.

On a track day your main goals are usually 1, have fun. 2, take the bike home. You ride with a safe margin of error. I do the same on a track day!

But for a racer practicing, their goals are a little different! They are looking for every tenth of time on the track, riding at the limit and learning to push it further. Crashes happen. It doesn't make them *****&^@$ or bad riders.
 
172Driver said:
I didn't watch the entire video of the OP, just skipped around through it a bit... what I did see was a pass way way way outside the op while the op was off line to the inside. Was 100% totally safe. OP, your not a little crossed up, your really crossed up. Pay attention to your line and your riding, a few have mentioned it but looking around you is a big no no! Even when you know where a guy behind you it is useless information because you shouldn't be adjusting for them, its unpredictable and unsafe. One more thing, get your body into position entering the corner, try not to adjust that position -especially lifting and changing where your butt is on the seat- mid corner, it upsets the bike. Go into the corner already set up and gently roll on throttle through it, don't chop. Do this until your amazing at it! Your crash was probably a mix of track surface and how leaned over you are for that pace, it sucks but chalk it up to a learning experience.

Ethereal, I see the pass your talking about in your video... ya it was close, ya it was inside and fine it was against the rules. He should have gone outside you too. He definitely wasn't in the dirt. But consider this.... he passed you much much faster, he committed to that line before he even saw that corner, fast riders are turning into 4 long before they see it. It is possible he wasn't expecting traffic mid corner that much slower than him and it would have been sketchy to try and change his line to pass outside. If he got on the brakes he likely would have taken you out trying to slow to your pace. The last time he saw you and the other bike you probably looked to be a similar pace to his, he just kept his speed through the corner. His pass was also in no way unsafe, just closer and faster than your used to. Next time deal with things like that after the session, shaking your fist at him on track didn't do anything... focus on riding!

It should be common knowledge that last week the track days will have racers in the mix, especially Thursday! The small bikes are in a crap situation, the racers are above the pace of novice track day groups, but when they get thrown in the faster groups with the bigger bikes they are just as much a hazard there because the closing speeds get crazy. If they were moved the organizers would just have a bunch of moaning and complaining intermediate/advanced riders on their hands! And it isn't reasonable to expect them to throw away the day parking the bike in corners when they are there to learn and practice for a race weekend.
Click to expand...

What you cant see it that our pace was almost the same and I had 2 riders in front that I slowed and knew I could pass on the straight. Him and I could see the lap traffic from the top of 4, I slowed and he took it as a chance to pass us all. Could have passed on their outside as well but waited as we were told no passing in the corners. You can see I had plenty of chances to pass but backed off every time. I dont want anyone in a green group that close to me. Yes he had skill and took the Win by alot on Sunday but I dont trust anyone in a green group and never would...
 
172Driver said:
Oh and this trump card of "he passed me and then crashed up the track" is odd to me.

On a track day your main goals are usually 1, have fun. 2, take the bike home. You ride with a safe margin of error. I do the same on a track day!

But for a racer practicing, their goals are a little different! They are looking for every tenth of time on the track, riding at the limit and learning to push it further. Crashes happen. It doesn't make them *****&^@$ or bad riders.
Click to expand...

It was 2 sessions after this the guy on a 300 Kawi crashed going around 3. He passed me a few corners back and I stayed with him as he had great lines. It was getting wet so I backed off and was not feeling his speed in corner 3. He lost it and lowsided. I was talking to him in the paddock before and he said "**** that no passing Bull ****" The rules were simply bent and expectations of that day were very obscured. But you would think GREEN would hold the rules over any other group as most of us when asked is this your first time here and over 1/2 put up their hands they would adhere to what they said.
 
yeah, that was a little close for a track day pass, and I wouldn't be happy getting passed like that, but I am going to agree with 172Driver on the probable circumstance of the pass, he was likely already committed to the line and didn't expect you to slow down that much, either way its not a green group pass.
now you know what to expect on the Thursday before the double header at Mosport, yes its a track day, and yes its supposed to be track day rules but they seem to be a lot more flexible as the weekend gets closer.
On Wednesday there wasnt supposed to be a green group, so it seemed like everyone from green went into Yellow which made for some hairy moments because it seemed like some of the faster guys were in the 1:30s and some of the slower guys were 2min+, Thursdays yellow group was completely different story, next year try and get out on the Monday or Tuesday and you will have a different experience
 
172Driver said:
I didn't watch the entire video of the OP, just skipped around through it a bit... what I did see was a pass way way way outside the op while the op was off line to the inside. Was 100% totally safe. OP, your not a little crossed up, your really crossed up. Pay attention to your line and your riding, a few have mentioned it but looking around you is a big no no! Even when you know where a guy behind you it is useless information because you shouldn't be adjusting for them, its unpredictable and unsafe. One more thing, get your body into position entering the corner, try not to adjust that position -especially lifting and changing where your butt is on the seat- mid corner, it upsets the bike. Go into the corner already set up and gently roll on throttle through it, don't chop. Do this until your amazing at it! Your crash was probably a mix of track surface and how leaned over you are for that pace, it sucks but chalk it up to a learning experience.

Ethereal, I see the pass your talking about in your video... ya it was close, ya it was inside and fine it was against the rules. He should have gone outside you too. He definitely wasn't in the dirt. But consider this.... he passed you much much faster, he committed to that line before he even saw that corner, fast riders are turning into 4 long before they see it. It is possible he wasn't expecting traffic mid corner that much slower than him and it would have been sketchy to try and change his line to pass outside. If he got on the brakes he likely would have taken you out trying to slow to your pace. The last time he saw you and the other bike you probably looked to be a similar pace to his, he just kept his speed through the corner. His pass was also in no way unsafe, just closer and faster than your used to. Next time deal with things like that after the session, shaking your fist at him on track didn't do anything... focus on riding!

It should be common knowledge that last week the track days will have racers in the mix, especially Thursday! The small bikes are in a crap situation, the racers are above the pace of novice track day groups, but when they get thrown in the faster groups with the bigger bikes they are just as much a hazard there because the closing speeds get crazy. If they were moved the organizers would just have a bunch of moaning and complaining intermediate/advanced riders on their hands! And it isn't reasonable to expect them to throw away the day parking the bike in corners when they are there to learn and practice for a race weekend.
Click to expand...
There's no excusing what that rider did. He didn't have to commit 100% to a blind corner when there's bikes disappearing in front of him on a track day, especially since there are often much, much slower riders than Ethereal in green (usually doing lead-follow). The guy should have left a huge margin of error, too bad for his lap times. He also could have passed on the outside, or he could have pitted to ask for space. Apart from breaking the rules, what he did was unsafe, otherwise, why is there a no passing in the corners rule at all?

Also if the organizers knew the rider was fast he should have been in red, not even yellow. Splitting riders into groups isn't about lap times, it's about cornering and more particularly, it's about behaving predictably. It so happens the faster guys are more predictable, so using lap times as a rough proxy to gauge predictable riding makes some sense, but it stops making sense for fast riders on slow bikes. Even if they're only doing 150 on the straight they're safer alongside other pros doing 250 than rookies doing 220 because the pros all ride predictably. Also, if the organizers had seen that pass there's no excuse for failing to take action.

I don't know what the organizers knew or what they saw, so maybe they're not to blame but the rider is definitely at fault.
 
mbroyda said:
yeah, that was a little close for a track day pass, and I wouldn't be happy getting passed like that, but I am going to agree with 172Driver on the probable circumstance of the pass, he was likely already committed to the line and didn't expect you to slow down that much, either way its not a green group pass.
now you know what to expect on the Thursday before the double header at Mosport, yes its a track day, and yes its supposed to be track day rules but they seem to be a lot more flexible as the weekend gets closer.
On Wednesday there wasnt supposed to be a green group, so it seemed like everyone from green went into Yellow which made for some hairy moments because it seemed like some of the faster guys were in the 1:30s and some of the slower guys were 2min+, Thursdays yellow group was completely different story, next year try and get out on the Monday or Tuesday and you will have a different experience
Click to expand...

I am ok with it now knowing what to expect. Now having a bit of time on the track I will be comfortable with increasing my pace. This was the only video I could load as the camera crapped out and I have a bunch of 6 second vids. My times were coming down (1:50s) a lot even with the rain but never did I feel like I was at my limit. Sure that may not be fast for you guys but I have only been on motor bike for 3 months now. This is my trans-portion to and from work and keep my pace well within the limits.
 
172Driver said:
I didn't watch the entire video of the OP, just skipped around through it a bit... what I did see was a pass way way way outside the op while the op was off line to the inside. Was 100% totally safe. OP, your not a little crossed up, your really crossed up. Pay attention to your line and your riding, a few have mentioned it but looking around you is a big no no! Even when you know where a guy behind you it is useless information because you shouldn't be adjusting for them, its unpredictable and unsafe. One more thing, get your body into position entering the corner, try not to adjust that position -especially lifting and changing where your butt is on the seat- mid corner, it upsets the bike. Go into the corner already set up and gently roll on throttle through it, don't chop. Do this until your amazing at it! Your crash was probably a mix of track surface and how leaned over you are for that pace, it sucks but chalk it up to a learning experience.

Ethereal, I see the pass your talking about in your video... ya it was close, ya it was inside and fine it was against the rules. He should have gone outside you too. He definitely wasn't in the dirt. But consider this.... he passed you much much faster, he committed to that line before he even saw that corner, fast riders are turning into 4 long before they see it. It is possible he wasn't expecting traffic mid corner that much slower than him and it would have been sketchy to try and change his line to pass outside. If he got on the brakes he likely would have taken you out trying to slow to your pace. The last time he saw you and the other bike you probably looked to be a similar pace to his, he just kept his speed through the corner. His pass was also in no way unsafe, just closer and faster than your used to. Next time deal with things like that after the session, shaking your fist at him on track didn't do anything... focus on riding!

It should be common knowledge that last week the track days will have racers in the mix, especially Thursday! The small bikes are in a crap situation, the racers are above the pace of novice track day groups, but when they get thrown in the faster groups with the bigger bikes they are just as much a hazard there because the closing speeds get crazy. If they were moved the organizers would just have a bunch of moaning and complaining intermediate/advanced riders on their hands! And it isn't reasonable to expect them to throw away the day parking the bike in corners when they are there to learn and practice for a race weekend.
Click to expand...

The passes was not an issue for this particular session. For me it was more in the morning sessions when the clowns were out and about.

I hear you on the looking around part. But like i said before and Ethereal's vid clearly shows this. Some of the passes were just outrageous.

I hope to take some courses on body positioning next year. Thanks for your feedback.
 
Organizers desperately need to have a rethink. Maybe no green group before a race? Tell people there are racers mixed in with the group(s)?
 
Baggsy said:
If they mix people into the wrong groups, say no passing in corners, and then allow passing in corners, doesn't that open them up to personal liability?

I understand that they want to make as much money as possible, but they should have at the very, very least set some standards for who could pass at corners, so that people would expect it.

Some of the better riders here have discussed the possibility of running right over newbies who didn't keep a line at track days, a couple of years ago.
Click to expand...

I have a great appreciation for those who organize td's. The logistical nightmare they deal with is huge, and they do try to satisfy all involved. When you participate in a td you sign a waiver and you take your chances. The best thing a rider can do is express their concerns to those in charge of the td. Perhaps with this kind of input the organizer will make changes. This is everyone's responsibility. In this case, before a race weekend, an additional session for the 300 guys would have been appropriate. Making money is not the force that drives td organizers.

We are lucky to have the opportunity to ride our bikes on a race track. I do not think we should take this for granted.
 
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