Failing to stop

[Roadghost]

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I suggest 172 is a big factor in why kids on bikes run from the law. That bike is likely his lifeline - how he gets to work, how he sees his girlfriend, his personal business, his entire world of freedom, not to mention insurance. Young guys often live on razor's edge of poverty, barely making rent and bills and they can't afford fines or to lose their meal ticket (their motorcycle). When he sees a LEO coming for him all he sees is guy coming to take it all away. Aggravating the situation is the number of YouTube videos showing riders who run from police and seem to (or pretend to) get away with it. They promote a fairly romantic notion to young impressionable minds with an underdeveloped frontal cortex.

What few understand is that in most cases the first thing a LEO will do is take your license# and pull you over afterwards. If you run they will visit your house, unless you have a bogus plate, in which case you may or may not be hunted down. A young man will do things he regrets later on in life. Some take risks and don't live to tell about it. There are Liveleak and YouTube vids to illustrate that too. I suppose there is also an adrenaline rush trying to run from police for some. I suppose running on a bike is better than these guys running in a car, because with those they can kill people easily. As long as we have young men we will have cop-runners, risk takers, etc. You can pass all the laws you want but these guys are going to find a way to get their adrenaline fix. 172, helmet laws, lower speed limits, etc. have never and will never have an effect on that. It's why we're always going to need cops.

 

[HarleyHare]

Powerful Motorcycle + youth = invincibility

That is why we send young people to fight wars. And always have. They will never die and are invincible. Anyone older and with any sense hides or runs from war.

Take 'powerful motorcycle' out of the equation and you are left with something more reasonable. My son's bike is 160 hp and 375 pounds, every time I ride it I'm shaking. By the time I'm in 3rd gear, I'm in another time zone. If it gives an old man so much of a rush, think of what it does for young guys.

These machines should really be limited to the track and should not be on the road. The temptation to run is way too great.

 

[gsxr guy]

I was going to post this on one of the other threads, but I thought it would be better if it had it's own.

From what I've seen, if a motorcyclist wants to run from the police, they will, and they will get away. They are faster than anything the police have, except for a radio, but we don't always have another car waiting ahead. If a rider is 100% committed to running, they are gone.

Last year I tried to stop a young man on an R6 who was cornered on a dead end road. We squared off and he rode right past me to get back to the highway, where he promptly took off at high speed. I didn't follow. Since I had some other investigative leads, I was able to show up at his house and the matter ended in criminal charges. One month later, he was followed by a police helicopter doing the same thing, and was arrested again, this time held for bail. He wasn't a bad kid but definitely made some bad choices. I would tend to think that most officers see someone that runs as someone who has a real reason to run, ie. stolen bike, wanted person, etc. The real danger that I'm seeing is that motorcyclists are running for much smaller reasons, and are either risking their own safety or other people's, in their escape.

Can we blame 172 for all of this? Would those that chose to run for a 172 charge run for a plate infraction? Would you run because your insurance slip was out of date? Where is the line in the sand that makes you decide not to stop for police?

172. $5000 mininum criminal record. So why would you stop. Plate is a fine. Wheelie used to be a fine(unnecessary noise). . Now its172. The most stupid law our idiot law makers have made. Hit a pedestrian in an intersection. 3 points unsafe lane change. Do a wheelie $5000 no license etc. No logic to it at all.

 

[AL3RT]

Can we blame 172 for all of this? Would those that chose to run for a 172 charge run for a plate infraction? Would you run because your insurance slip was out of date? Where is the line in the sand that makes you decide not to stop for police?

Imagine if the police were known for pulling over law-abiding citizens and awarding them with free candy/Tim Horton's gift cards for obeying the traffic laws...
How many people would actually wish they got a traffic stop?

 

[CafeRay]

172. $5000 mininum criminal record. So why would you stop. Plate is a fine. Wheelie used to be a fine(unnecessary noise). . Now its172. The most stupid law our idiot law makers have made. Hit a pedestrian in an intersection. 3 points unsafe lane change. Do a wheelie $5000 no license etc. No logic to it at all.

Plenty of logic, as the number of high speed crashes has gone down since 172, especially among the rice racers.
If you don't understand why doing a wheelie on a public road is not safe to the rider or the public, then you should understand why we need to make anti-stupid c-nt laws.

[video=youtube;p9mXelnqCIg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9mXelnqCIg[/video]

 

[YZFer]

a police showed up at my buddies house last week saying he fled from the police 3 weeks ago, he got a summon ticket to court for "failing to stop for the police" and "stunt driving"... he honestly says the police where not chasing him, if he saw the police he would have pulled over in a instant, no criminal charges where made. we wait now to see what happens after the first court date. i suggested he gets all the disclosure package that will give all the evidence against him am i correct?

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Imagine if the police were known for pulling over law-abiding citizens and awarding them with free candy/Tim Horton's gift cards for obeying the traffic laws...
How many people would actually wish they got a traffic stop?

There was an awareness campaign, not too long ago, in which police were pulling people over and giving them coupon books. They used to do the same thing at RIDE checks but I haven't been through one in years, so I don't know if they still do.

 

[AL3RT]

There was an awareness campaign, not too long ago, in which police were pulling people over and giving them coupon books. They used to do the same thing at RIDE checks but I haven't been through one in years, so I don't know if they still do.

Yes, Rob, I remember that one. It's, however, not the same I'm referring to. The idea is to "target" folks who obey the law and award them on the spot, oppose to giving away stuff to everyone who happens to be there for a RIDE check.

Example: the BikeCop is on street patrol. He approaches an intersection. The traffic light is already amber and then - changes to red. In the opposite lanes, on a 3 lane road - 2 cars gunn it through. And the 3rd one decides to stop. Result: failing to stop tickets for the two and a sugar glazed donut for the third one for the job well done!

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Yes, Rob, I remember that one. It's, however, not the same I'm referring to. The idea is to "target" folks who obey the law and award them on the spot, oppose to giving away stuff to everyone who happens to be there for a RIDE check.

Example: the BikeCop is on street patrol. He approaches an intersection. The traffic light is already amber and then - changes to red. In the opposite lanes, on a 3 lane road - 2 cars gunn it through. And the 3rd one decides to stop. Result: failing to stop tickets for the two and a sugar glazed donut for the third one for the job well done!

http://www.guelphmercury.com/news-story/2789587-guelph-police-honours-and-rewards-good-drivers/

 

[AL3RT]

 

[gsxr guy]

Plenty of logic, as the number of high speed crashes has gone down since 172, especially among the rice racers.
If you don't understand why doing a wheelie on a public road is not safe to the rider or the public, then you should understand why we need to make anti-stupid c-nt laws.

[video=youtube;p9mXelnqCIg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9mXelnqCIg[/video]

I don't normally reply to you because I don't think you ride. 172 was created to impound honda civic from kids that drag raced on city streets. A couple cars were crushed on the news even. High speed crashes are down because kids can't afford the ins to ride SS. There was already laws for stupid driving, careless, dangerous, fail to stop for police, cause police persuit etc. The more laws there is the less freedom we all have. It also takes freedom from the police officer to decide if what he saw should be a fine or a court date. Nice vid by the way. A stand up wheelie like that on the street would get you a careless or a dangerous depending where it was. Long before 172. And I don't want laws that protect me from myself. People are fighting the assisted suicide law for that reason. In ontario if you are new driver no one is allowed pillon. In alberta you must have a pillon with a bike license at all times. Totally different laws in our own country. Why not do what other countries do 125 then 250 etc. I have logged over 1,000,000km on motorcycles with 0 accidents. So go back to the cafe ray.

 

[AL3RT]

 

[Brian P]

Plenty of logic, as the number of high speed crashes has gone down since 172, especially among the rice racers.

Not really true. The total motorcyclist fatality rate continued long-term trends (s 172 made no statistically significant difference) and I believe the same is the case for cars. Keep in mind that this law came into effect at the same time as the recession/depression, which had an effect across North America simply because people were driving/riding less.

Reason is very simple: truly high-speed crashes, although widely publicized, are exceptionally rare in reality, and of the ones that do occur, the riders/drivers involved often are those who don't care about the laws. Then there's the matter of riders/drivers who wouldn't have run from the cops before, but do now, and crash as a result. It has happened.

The vast majority of fatal crashes happen at normal speeds, where someone runs a red light, makes an improper turn at an intersection, drifts over the center line or into the ditch, etc., in circumstances for which s 172 is irrelevant.

From Hurt report (old, but I know of no more recent studies), the median impact speed in fatality crashes was 27 mph (about 45 km/h - i.e. half of all fatal crashes happened at speeds lower than this - Reason: city traffic), and the one-in-a-thousand impact speed was 85 mph (about 140 km/h).

a police showed up at my buddies house last week saying he fled from the police 3 weeks ago, he got a summon ticket to court for "failing to stop for the police" and "stunt driving"... he honestly says the police where not chasing him, if he saw the police he would have pulled over in a instant, no criminal charges where made. we wait now to see what happens after the first court date. i suggested he gets all the disclosure package that will give all the evidence against him am i correct?

I hope he said nothing to the police when they showed up at his door. Yes, he needs to get disclosure. The police will likely ask him where he was at that time ... he does not need to answer that, it's up to THEM to prove that they have the right person. He is NOT obligated to tell them who was riding the bike at any specific time or place. It is likely better for a lawyer to be answering questions like that in court as opposed to having him answer.

 

[Face]

So, as I read it, any left lane bandit sitting at the speed of the traffic beside them, with a line of cars behind, & a big open space in front should be charged under 172

8. Driving a motor vehicle without due care and attention, without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway or in a manner that may endanger any person by,
i. driving a motor vehicle in a manner that indicates an intention to prevent another vehicle from passing,

Will it happen, never, but given how open to interpretation the law is, why not. Are they endangering anyone? Sure if their act encourages others to weave or make tight lane changes to get by. The wording implies the right to pass, so there's no argument to say just sit back there in traffic and take it.

Bike Cop, why don't you get out there and lay a few of these charges? Impound a few Buicks & Camrys and we'll see how quickly politicians react to the blue rinse set and their lawyers raising constitutional issues about 172.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

So, as I read it, any left lane bandit sitting at the speed of the traffic beside them, with a line of cars behind, & a big open space in front should be charged under 172

Will it happen, never, but given how open to interpretation the law is, why not. Are they endangering anyone? Sure if their act encourages others to weave or make tight lane changes to get by. The wording implies the right to pass, so there's no argument to say just sit back there in traffic and take it.

Bike Cop, why don't you get out there and lay a few of these charges? Impound a few Buicks & Camrys and we'll see how quickly politicians react to the blue rinse set and their lawyers raising constitutional issues about 172.

Such a person is not endangering the drivers behind him, which is a requirement for the charge under 172, unless you consider the possibility of an anger induced aneurysm to be 'endangering.'

 

[Face]

Such a person is not endangering the drivers behind him, which is a requirement for the charge under 172, unless you consider the possibility of an anger induced aneurysm to be 'endangering.'

So if "endangering" others is a criteria, 51 over on an open road with no one around shouldn't trigger 172. Neither should a few lane changes that don't cause others to alter their course or speed. If "endangering" is the criteria, wouldn't that mean that the officer would have to prove that the accused was not in control of his/her vehicle? But texting and driving should be elevated to 172 as the distraction can clearly be proven as endangering others.

 

[-Maverick-]

I suggest 172 is a big factor in why kids on bikes run from the law. That bike is likely his lifeline - how he gets to work, how he sees his girlfriend, his personal business, his entire world of freedom, not to mention insurance. Young guys often live on razor's edge of poverty, barely making rent and bills and they can't afford fines or to lose their meal ticket (their motorcycle). When he sees a LEO coming for him all he sees is guy coming to take it all away. Aggravating the situation is the number of YouTube videos showing riders who run from police and seem to (or pretend to) get away with it. They promote a fairly romantic notion to young impressionable minds with an underdeveloped frontal cortex.

What few understand is that in most cases the first thing a LEO will do is take your license# and pull you over afterwards. If you run they will visit your house, unless you have a bogus plate, in which case you may or may not be hunted down. A young man will do things he regrets later on in life. Some take risks and don't live to tell about it. There are Liveleak and YouTube vids to illustrate that too. I suppose there is also an adrenaline rush trying to run from police for some. I suppose running on a bike is better than these guys running in a car, because with those they can kill people easily. As long as we have young men we will have cop-runners, risk takers, etc. You can pass all the laws you want but these guys are going to find a way to get their adrenaline fix. 172, helmet laws, lower speed limits, etc. have never and will never have an effect on that. It's why we're always going to need cops.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Most kids and non-kids that run "do" get away. 172 created this "stop you're screwed, run you may be screwed a little more or not at all." Most SS riders have plate flippers. Cops need to catch you on the bike, not just have your plate number to make a conviction. ******** law and ******** tactics by cops to enforce the ******** law. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Not promoting running and not promoting not running, but will mention that if you do run, know your area. And know how to run. The biggest problem with running is your own brain which signals a mass rush of adrenaline which can F you up. You're programmed to fear a police car. Pretend there's an angry taxi cab driver chasing you and all of a sudden you're calm enough to disappear into the sunset. What cop car? [/FONT]

 

[Rob MacLennan]

So if "endangering" others is a criteria, 51 over on an open road with no one around shouldn't trigger 172. Neither should a few lane changes that don't cause others to alter their course or speed. If "endangering" is the criteria, wouldn't that mean that the officer would have to prove that the accused was not in control of his/her vehicle? But texting and driving should be elevated to 172 as the distraction can clearly be proven as endangering others.

The presumption that others are endangered is far easier in some cases than in others, obviously. Should it be presumed? Surely not but it's human nature, and judges/JPs are still only human.

The presence or lack of control is immaterial, if the criteria are met. It's also immaterial in which the act, itself, is enough for guilt with or without mens rea.

 

[f1mauro]

Imagine if the police were known for pulling over law-abiding citizens and awarding them with free candy/Tim Horton's gift cards for obeying the traffic laws...
How many people would actually wish they got a traffic stop?

If I knew they were trying to pull me over to give me free Tim Horton's gift cards, I'd run.

 

[AL3RT]

Most kids and non-kids that run "do" get away. 172 created this "stop you're screwed, run you may be screwed a little more or not at all." Most SS riders have plate flippers. Cops need to catch you on the bike, not just have your plate number to make a conviction. ******** law and ******** tactics by cops to enforce the ******** law.

Not promoting running and not promoting not running, but will mention that if you do run, know your area. And know how to run. The biggest problem with running is your own brain which signals a mass rush of adrenaline which can F you up. You're programmed to fear a police car. Pretend there's an angry taxi cab driver chasing you and all of a sudden you're calm enough to disappear into the sunset. What cop car?

Right. Just make sure you have enough fuel.

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