Don't like the site? Don't bother visiting.
|
|
|
Darksider - conviction registered
- Thread starter Bike Cop
- Start date
Don't like the site? Don't bother visiting.
I truly believe that some folk medicines are very beneficial. The trouble is I don't know which ones. As you say, when there is a failure it isn't mentioned.
However I have met several darksiders including Fatwing and he is not some redneck goober living in a trailer park. The fact that he is comfortable with a car tire gives it some credibility but I still want more info. That won't come if we throw the baby out with the bath water.
The legal aspect is an issue re the trike/hack market. The small size of the market makes it impractical to do accurate testing and even setting up a voluntary reporting program would cost more than any governmental body would want to take on in these slash and cut times.
Stealing from Neimoller
First they banned car tires and I said nothing because I didn't run a car tire
Then they banned open faced helmets and I said nothing because I wear full face
Then they banned hacks. I don't have a sidecar. I said nothing
Then they banned trikes. I don't have a trike. I said nothing
Then they banned motors over 1000 cc. Wait a minute! We've got to stand together so I can keep my Goldwing.
Last edited:
Bike Cop
Well-known member
My apologies for not replying lately, I've had a couple busy shifts... but I've read up on the latest posts. I do have some contacts that are P.Eng's for the MTO, and I mentioned to them about the tire issue and they both looked at me like I had two heads. They were very surprised that anyone would even consider darksiding. Maybe it's more of a niche thing than I thought. I will keep my eyes open for more examples at Dover in June.
I do have another question that seems to be coming up in this thread, at what point does a motorcycle cease to be the vehicle that it was designed to be? Changing forks, shocks, handlebars, lengthening swingarms, really in some cases the only constant is the engine. I don't have an answer for this one... but is there a line in the sand where it becomes a home-built vehicle?
I do have another question that seems to be coming up in this thread, at what point does a motorcycle cease to be the vehicle that it was designed to be? Changing forks, shocks, handlebars, lengthening swingarms, really in some cases the only constant is the engine. I don't have an answer for this one... but is there a line in the sand where it becomes a home-built vehicle?
That seems to be a rather shadowy line. Substantial modifications can result in an inability to obtain insurance though a vehicle might be legal, strictly speaking. If the frame number and engine number are intact, and it can pass a safety with all required equipment intact, then it's MTO legal. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's safe.
I think your going to see alot more of this. I see more every season. On the Vulcan forums and other Kawi forums darksiding is becoming very popular in the US. It's always one of most frequently posted topics right up there with oil and waving threads. I've read a bunch of them and very few people seem to complain, but then again the complainers could all be dead.
I've written this in response to both of you - I've touched on some of the below, in previous posts - from a sidecar pilot's perspective, and 20 year experience.
It's the way MTO rules are written. As long as the registration is still valid for a vehicle class, is attached to the vehicle, if said vehicle passes a mechanical safety, or an engineering assessment, then it's all good. It's still a 'factory' motorcycle even if the only thing remaining on it factory, is the portion of the frame holding the VIN. People have taken sidecar outfit modifications to that point of change, on both sides of the pond.
Europe/UK standards are a bit different, and a bit more rigorous. All associated UNECE/TLV/MOT standards that are in place, are documented and enforced - including vehicle modification engineering standards. They do have people on staff in their Standards/Inspections offices that can do this, apparently.
At it's core - a sidecar is considered an accessory for a vehicle class - motorcycles. They are treated as such. Attached to a motorcycle, it should be assessed by a knowledgeable mechanic for vehicle mechanical fitness and for any potential instability issues. If it is being registered for a safety, the whole assembly together needs to be assessed for road safety and braking/lighting standards. A knowledgeable mechanic would know that this includes alignment, geometry, braking, suspension, and any other mods that are potentially needed to make it a safe vehicle for road use. An ignorant mechanic will eyeball it, make sure it's lights work, give his shoulders a shrug, and sign the safety. Unfortunately, people do die because of this.
Fundamentally though, A motorcycle, with a sidecar, is still considered a motorcycle with a very large accessory, by MTO and Federal vehicle standards. As far as vehicle standards go, it's nothing more than an over-sized saddlebag, with a bogie wheel. Very few juristictions even have set standards for lighting placement, braking requirements (ie. yes or no, and if so equipped, is it actually required to be hooked up?) etc etc.. There are certainly no set crash-safety, crush-zone or silly air-bag requirements for a sidecar.
At the the base level of sidecars - you are looking at your average every-day full cradle-framed motorcycle, mated to a generic sidecar. Minimum mods have been made to the vehicle, separately or in whole to make it work together as a unit. Perhaps stiffened shock-absorbers and stiffened springs/collars up front in the stock fork tubes, a steering damper, perhaps beefed up rim sizes running larger sized motorcycle tires, or running a mild car-tire modification. Matching 'weight-class' of motorcycle and sidecar to each other appropriately, as well as assuring ensuring correct geometry of the overall rig conforms to acceptable practice in terms of sidecar wheel lead, toe-in and lean-out, is part of the total setup process, and makes the difference between a good handling rig, and one that'll scare the piss out of you or worse, try to kill you, the first corner that you try to make.
In this class, are the conventional commercial sidecar outfit offerings - Ural, Dnieper, CZ/Jawa, HD fabricated kits are some of the more recent commercial offerings available.
The next class, are the medium performance rigs. Usually involving substantial wheel-set, suspension, braking, steering, and performance design changes, but usually along 'traditional' sidecar fabrication lines. This is where major structural changes start occurring in the sidecar design and setup.
Case in point - mine. My bike shares the swing-arm, frame, engine, fuel tank and triple trees of the original. Added on top of that ... 600lb spring shock-units up front, aftermarket 900lb spring shock in the rear, custom designed trailing arm swing-arm and hub/brake/wheel assembly on the sidecar - over-designed to survive all but a land-mine hit (I broke the original factory suspension/frame, very spectacularly!), new front-end leading-link design, custom full-girdle sub-frame fabricated to mount to original motorcycle frame (bolt-on) in order to attach the sidecar at 4 points without bending the hell out of or breaking the motorcycle frame the first time that i put a loading stress into it, custom/car-adapted rim and hub assemblies on all three wheels, sway-bar, remote hydraulic sidecar braking system.. and much more than that, that i've since forgotten about. I've added on ~700 lbs of weight, in the process of bolting on the sidecar and all associated modified and changed bits. I would estimate that about 100 lbs of that might well be considered 'extra' weight coming out of building things in the "when in doubt build it stout" school of industrial-engineering.
As mentioned before, mis-matching of a sidecar to a motorcycle in terms of both comparative size and weight, will also pose significant challenges in making a rig, 'safe'. Significant changes will be required for a mis-match - my current sidecar rig was a three year project in this sort of mis-match adaptation - my sidecar was built for a much larger motorcycle, in a touring configuration. I wanted it on a physically smaller motorcycle, in a semi-sport configuration. Major changes obviously occurred to make that happen. Consideration of weaknesses exposed, and issues needing to be overcome, resulted in changes being made in all aspects of that bike/sidecar combination in that 3 year project in order to make the whole mess work together, well. Rather much like teaching a hippo to dance like a ballerina.
I also had it looked at, over, inspected, and commented upon many times since - including by individuals inside of the sidecar industry. No voiced critique or concern of any of the mechanical or engineering changes that were made. I involved qualified welders and machinists in any parts that i could not handle.
It handles and performs much like a short wheelbase 3-wheeled Miata would, i imagine.. it's considered a medium performance sidecar rig, mainly because of the dated (but updated) 1940's Leading Link front-end design that i chose to fabricate. It's of a traditional design, but modified/updated to use stock braking components in full floating capacity, and a very wide car tire (obviously). It still has limitations in certain handling circumstances in higher performance situations, whereupon the next class of sidecar rig generally does not - performance is usually dictated by how much nerve the sidecar pilot possesses, in the 'high-performance class'.
'High performance sidecar rigs' - this is the fewest of the sidecar few. More popular in the UK/Europe, but still has a small following on this side of the pond. Usually owned/fabricated by the very technically oriented. There are only a few commercial entities that are trickling out hand-fabricated factory sidecar rigs of this type. They tend to borrow from 'race-tech' technology, and are fabricated with advanced hub-centre steering variation front-ends, integral sidecar/motor frames/bodies, etc etc... these are the comparative Ferrari's of the sidecar world. They are still registered and classed as a motorcycle in most jurisdictions, using the donor motorcycle registration.
With the exception of the comparative few factory built conversions in the sidecar class/low production runs of high performance sidecar designs, it's a very individualistic thing. The rule of thumb, no two sidecar rigs are the same - in setup, configuration, or even owner riding style. They very much need to be mechanically setup, and inspected for their own merits and/or short-comings or limitations. Certain bike designs lend themselves better to sidecar installation, than others. Certain bikes are easier to adapt, than others. No current factory manufacturer of motorcycles (with the exception of Ural) recommends installation of a sidecar to their motorcycles - it's an instant voided warranty. A valid reason - no motorcycle manufactured today is going to work with a sidecar, without modifications being done to it by necessity - to address safety related, or suspension, frame, and weight distribution short-comings that may compromise the vehicle combination on the roadway.
I can't really speak for other motorcycle adaptations and changes for 3 wheeled variations of trikes or reverse trikes, or doing substantial solo-track motorcycle structural changes. Do keep in mind that there are at least two manufacturers in the US and Canada (Hannigan, Lehman) that build straight from OEM factory conversions to trikes (1800 Goldwings are most common) as well as limited OEM factory offerings (Hannigan builds/built HD's factory trike special), and at least a couple of other manufacturers that build kits.
Only recently has Ontario legislation changed to recognize 3 wheeled configuration motorcycles and the recent popularity of the Bombardier Can-am Spyder - in respect to licencing only. If you test your M1/M2/M on a 3-wheeled configuration motorcycle class, your licence reflects that class limitation to 3 wheels only. If you test for an M1/M2/M on a solo motorcycle - you can ride both 2 and 3 wheeled motorcycle class vehicles. Sidecar outfits get thrown into the same licencing restriction as tadpole trikes like the Can-am, and traditional trike conversions like the modern Hannigans or Lehman goldwing/cruiser conversions.
The vast majority of these - sidecar, tadpole and traditional trikes (with the exception of the base class of sidecar rigs), use automotive purpose radial tires in the conversion process. Those that are involved with and sell these as conversions as DOT/MOT certified manufacturers, sell them with automotive rim conversion package setups only, for obvious safety and liability reasons. A true "dark-sider" might creep into the sidecar class on occasion on the homebrew side.. i haven't really seen any previously - but then i haven't paid attention the past few years either.
Last edited:
Bandit Bill
In my trade I am one of the top technicians in Ontario. Manufacturers, engineers and other trades have a lot of respect for me as a knowledgeable individual. However if I had to go up against any of the aforementioned in a court of law I would be seen as a cowboy because there is no documentation this side of the pond for what I do. I suspect that your knowledgeable individuals are in the same situation. It's the whole anecdotal evidence issue. Is there a Canadian certification process for a sidecar technician? UK / EU doesn't count.
The modifications you have made make it very clear that adding a safe sidecar isn't something one would cobble up over the weekend out of a baby carriage and a spare tire. I also gather that with sidecars there is a learning on the handling due largely to the asymmetrical mass. Apparently there are also learning curves to other M/C modifications.
I like sidecars and even kick around the thought of owning one but I'm not sure if I like the asymmetrical balance issues.
Rob McLean
The insurance company might decide AFTER you make a claim the you had not declared a modification and then decide not to pay put or to try to recoup their money. I recall being asked if my motorcycle had any modifications. It was a yes / no question so what defines a modification?
One can't reasonably say that a sidecar or trike, tag axle etc is the same as aftermarket handgrips. Who has enough money to fight an insurance company.
Biker Cop
When I first read about darksiders I thought "What a bunch of morons". When I looked at things more open mindedly I became more open to the concept if I could see where it substituted a low risk (Rim bead issue) for a higher risk issue (Flat tire / blow out). I'm still sitting on the fence. Tire cost has next to nothing to do with it. One other problem is that Darksiders can be fanatical about their choices and that can turn a lot of people, including me, off. Answer my questions, give me your info but don't preach down to me if I don't fall into line with you.
Re modifications in general, it's a world of cowboys. The HTA was written for the use of roads for transportation. Motorcycles are largely used for recreation and ego building. As such the owners play differently than the HTA was designed to oversee. Good luck on balancing that act.
P.S. Did you ever consider that those four foot wide grey concrete things along the SIDE the road are called sideWALKS. Not jogging trails, bike paths, skateboard ways, pogostick lanes, e-bike tracks etc. I wish you the wisdom of Solomon on straightening that out.
In my trade I am one of the top technicians in Ontario. Manufacturers, engineers and other trades have a lot of respect for me as a knowledgeable individual. However if I had to go up against any of the aforementioned in a court of law I would be seen as a cowboy because there is no documentation this side of the pond for what I do. I suspect that your knowledgeable individuals are in the same situation. It's the whole anecdotal evidence issue. Is there a Canadian certification process for a sidecar technician? UK / EU doesn't count.
The modifications you have made make it very clear that adding a safe sidecar isn't something one would cobble up over the weekend out of a baby carriage and a spare tire. I also gather that with sidecars there is a learning on the handling due largely to the asymmetrical mass. Apparently there are also learning curves to other M/C modifications.
I like sidecars and even kick around the thought of owning one but I'm not sure if I like the asymmetrical balance issues.
Rob McLean
The insurance company might decide AFTER you make a claim the you had not declared a modification and then decide not to pay put or to try to recoup their money. I recall being asked if my motorcycle had any modifications. It was a yes / no question so what defines a modification?
One can't reasonably say that a sidecar or trike, tag axle etc is the same as aftermarket handgrips. Who has enough money to fight an insurance company.
Biker Cop
When I first read about darksiders I thought "What a bunch of morons". When I looked at things more open mindedly I became more open to the concept if I could see where it substituted a low risk (Rim bead issue) for a higher risk issue (Flat tire / blow out). I'm still sitting on the fence. Tire cost has next to nothing to do with it. One other problem is that Darksiders can be fanatical about their choices and that can turn a lot of people, including me, off. Answer my questions, give me your info but don't preach down to me if I don't fall into line with you.
Re modifications in general, it's a world of cowboys. The HTA was written for the use of roads for transportation. Motorcycles are largely used for recreation and ego building. As such the owners play differently than the HTA was designed to oversee. Good luck on balancing that act.
P.S. Did you ever consider that those four foot wide grey concrete things along the SIDE the road are called sideWALKS. Not jogging trails, bike paths, skateboard ways, pogostick lanes, e-bike tracks etc. I wish you the wisdom of Solomon on straightening that out.
Noobie, I like you do see the "value" in anecdotal evidence, as long as, (it seems your suggesting), it is then validated in other ways with engineering testing etc.
I also like you am willing to listen to reasoned arguments but not to preaching.
I guess one way the darkside "could" potentially become an accepted practice would be if both sides, (engineers and darksiders), worked together, rather than just dismissing each other as fanatics, with opinions rather than facts. The goldwing owners, (as they seem to be in the fore front), should IMHO consider approaching Honda and say look we darkside for this reason and that reason. Are you willing to work with us, show us why you think it is not feasible then also work with some of out riders. Presumably there must be some darksiders who live close to Hinda test facilities, that they could bring the bike in with a new car tire, Likely would need two tries one on rim and one off so they can begin to test, they could then return at intervals agreed upon. The engineers could then study the variables and determine< (either way), if they would consider it feasible to dark side.
As I said I have no issue if someone wants to do this, not going to affect my wallet, (potential tickets, or denied claims).
BUT if they worked with the engineers, then we could see the law changed.
I am working wioth MTO on the 2 up versions of ATV's. I could "say" they are safe as there have been thousands of incident free riding done with them. I also admit there have been accidents and fatalities, (not necessarily due to vehicle design etc). The MTO has asked for safety data and aren't getting it from the manufacturers, (who tell us 2 ups currently account for 5% of total vehicle sales, so testing is cost prohibitive. Point is I am not prepared to say the MTO engineers, the bike engineers only have an "opinion" the bike is unstable, and that because they are being ridden safely everyday then the vehicle IS safe. Instead we are working with the groups and trying to establish through testing and anecdotal evidence combined that the vehicles are no less safe than single seat bikes. Till then I have to respect the law. If I am given a 2 up to ride, (sometimes we swap out vehicles while riding with friends), then I do so with full knowledge of the risks associated with doing so.
I also like you am willing to listen to reasoned arguments but not to preaching.
I guess one way the darkside "could" potentially become an accepted practice would be if both sides, (engineers and darksiders), worked together, rather than just dismissing each other as fanatics, with opinions rather than facts. The goldwing owners, (as they seem to be in the fore front), should IMHO consider approaching Honda and say look we darkside for this reason and that reason. Are you willing to work with us, show us why you think it is not feasible then also work with some of out riders. Presumably there must be some darksiders who live close to Hinda test facilities, that they could bring the bike in with a new car tire, Likely would need two tries one on rim and one off so they can begin to test, they could then return at intervals agreed upon. The engineers could then study the variables and determine< (either way), if they would consider it feasible to dark side.
As I said I have no issue if someone wants to do this, not going to affect my wallet, (potential tickets, or denied claims).
BUT if they worked with the engineers, then we could see the law changed.
I am working wioth MTO on the 2 up versions of ATV's. I could "say" they are safe as there have been thousands of incident free riding done with them. I also admit there have been accidents and fatalities, (not necessarily due to vehicle design etc). The MTO has asked for safety data and aren't getting it from the manufacturers, (who tell us 2 ups currently account for 5% of total vehicle sales, so testing is cost prohibitive. Point is I am not prepared to say the MTO engineers, the bike engineers only have an "opinion" the bike is unstable, and that because they are being ridden safely everyday then the vehicle IS safe. Instead we are working with the groups and trying to establish through testing and anecdotal evidence combined that the vehicles are no less safe than single seat bikes. Till then I have to respect the law. If I am given a 2 up to ride, (sometimes we swap out vehicles while riding with friends), then I do so with full knowledge of the risks associated with doing so.
I've heard of insurance companies asking for photographs of vehicles that they are insuring, though I've not been through that myself in more than ten years. Imagine that you call for a temporary binder and take the vehicle over for examination, and are then declined for insurance. Good luck getting that home. My current bike has aftermarket cartridge fork inserts, an aftermarket shock, Kawasaki accessory windscreen, and 96 Litres of Givi storage bolted on. It also has additional aftermarket lighting mounted to the rear (some kit and some self-made), to improve visibility. These are unlikely to cause an insurance claim denial.
Once you're insured they are unlikely to decline a claim against you, by another motorist, but as you say they could certainly decline to cover a substantially modified vehicle when a claim is made, after an incident.
There have been no reported accidents with Goldwings running car tires. The key word is "Reported". I do think that anecdotal evidence eludes to some potential but I think we are past the unverified road test stage and it's time for some lab work that can be more readily documented. Who is going to pay for it?
Step 1) Find a suitable individual to run the tests, design and build the equipment, determine appropriate standards etc. I don't think having a thousand riders packing on the miles is the next step, not that it is a bad thing statistically.
Step 2) Obtain space and build the equipment. I'm open to suggestions but there appear to be three issues, the handling characteristics, traction and bead / rim security. I'm going to forget about handling because IMO (Sorry Bandit Bill) nothing could be worse than a sidecar on wet roads with a drunk passenger.
I could come up with a basic traction test that would go the next step. The key word is could. Right now I have too many other irons in the fire and remember, I'm sitting on the fence.
I see bead separation tests being done using hydraulic cylinders applying various vectored forces on the tire / rim combo and comparing them to stock M/C tires. This will take a lot more knuckle bashing and money.
The above tests could still be done relatively inexpensively but to prepare them for presentation to the MOT (If they are interested) would cost a lot more.
Certified organizations would have to get involved. A reputable engineer would have to start from scratch. He / she would be risking their reputation if they took on the project to only refine what you already gave them.
Separate tests would have to be done on every tire / rim combo.
I can see it running $100K to make a presentation portfolio. If the tests come out negative it's still $100K.
Gathering more anecdotal evidence by the LEOs agreeing to a truce when the only issue is the car tire opens up the possibility of discovering that something was wrong with the concept. All it takes is one failure to negate all the good miles.
Who's going to pony up the $100K. I don't think Honda or the tire companies are interested.
Last edited:
I find a complete vacuum of information, in this regard, to be a rather large statistical anomaly in and of itself. Either darksider Goldwing riders have found the path to completely accident free riding, or they're being rather selective in what is reported.
When a situation is confrontational you don't expose your underbelly.
In other words you don't present a reasoned response, but rather stick to your polarized diatribe. Sounds like American (and increasingly Canadian) politics.
macrider
Well-known member
Seems to be a lot of bikers here that must have a lot of experience on darkside tires to be able to make judgment and condemn them. I ride a big bike a Rocket 3 and have 25000 km's on a darkside tire. would never go back to a MC tire. I do not argue anymore about the benefits or cons of car tires ,it is not worth it..I just wish that guys that have never done it would refrain from commenting negatively. It works very well for big touring bikes.
Maybe I should have said when you're under attack you don't expose your underbelly. Let's leave politics for another thread.
I just came from an all candidates meeting and it made this thread look intelligent. Maybe I should have raised the Darkside issue.
It was more a commentary on the tactics of attack, rather than reasoned debate, than it was of politics. The comments akin to, "If you've never tried it then you have no valid debate" are clearly false logic, in an attempt to discredit any gainsayers. It would be like me saying if you've never dented a gas tank with your nuts then you can't comment on what that would be like, just because I have in fact done that. Engineering is a science. Physics (statics and dynamics) is a science. We've all got riding experience, to a greater or lesser degree. Outcomes are, in fact, predictable.
Agreed, Enough talk. Darksiders, show me the test results. Anti Darksiders, show me the test results. Or at least suggest test parameters.
Well this is a start, but by no means comprehensive or total.
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2013-198/page-2.html#h-4
When you buy a Gold wing isn't it like buying a BMW, (in that you instantly become "entitled" to park where ever you wish), with the gold wing you get a "force field" which prevents any sort of accident. Lol
Great post noobie, although I suspect that testing of every rim and tire combo would cost a lot more than $100K. but I will accept your costing given your more qualified than I. I also agree, I doubt Honda would take on that cost for one model. Plus of course if they did the testing and then certified the use of car tires on Goldwings. How long do we think it would be before someone, (likely in the US), launched a class action law suit saying they spent more on tires than they needed as Honda didn't do due diligence and test this before.
Great post noobie, although I suspect that testing of every rim and tire combo would cost a lot more than $100K. but I will accept your costing given your more qualified than I. I also agree, I doubt Honda would take on that cost for one model. Plus of course if they did the testing and then certified the use of car tires on Goldwings. How long do we think it would be before someone, (likely in the US), launched a class action law suit saying they spent more on tires than they needed as Honda didn't do due diligence and test this before.
Already given figures related to rim differences/tire association bulletins earlier in the thread!
I too find the lack of 1st person negative commentary related to practical use of car tires, a disturbance in the Force. I seem to remember reading an incident or two reported online, back when i did my own research.
I too find the lack of 1st person negative commentary related to practical use of car tires, a disturbance in the Force. I seem to remember reading an incident or two reported online, back when i did my own research.
|
|
|
|
|