Anyone here?

[Jayv]

Forum Sponsor

I don't find Euro drivers any better than Canadian drivers and neither as good as Australian tho most of us would find Australian traffic and enforcement very heavy handed compared to Canada.

Driving standards of the UK are so much better over there than here. Back home last year, i really only had one incident where someone was driving like a complete knob, where in the GTA it's an hourly occurrence. The traffic cameras on the highways/motorways really do seem to keep speeds in check, measuring your average speed from point a to point b.

Lane discipline, poor testing standards, distracted driving and generally not giving two ***** about anyone else except for themselves are just the tip of the iceberg to our problems.

 

[LPakkala]

I don't normally wade into threads like these, but I can fully appreciate both sides of the discussion. Having regularly dealt with the mechanical aftermath of motorcycle accidents I am familiar with the energies involved when something tragic occurs and wouldn't wish it on any rider or first-responder. Neil might be on to something but rather than trying to change the rules (draconian or not) maybe just the way they are applied. I don't think that there needs to be one set of rules set in stone that is applied the exact same way regardless of circumstances, the world isn't black and white, there have been many examples in this thread of where this works (eg. tickets being reduced, drivers let off with a warning). And the roadside education has (probably) served a better lesson than a ticket and day in court.

However, this might require a different method of law enforcement public interaction, which is where the problems start. There are some excellent cases of this: the lady being arrested in Hamilton on film - great job by the officers explaining what was happening to the bystanders while still doing what was necessary, and the "ask-a-cop" segment on Y108, and Hedo's and Bikecop's interaction on this forum. But these don't get as much attention because they don't sell headlines as well as interactions where someone looks like a villain. The positive reinforcement from these public interactions serve to remind the average person that law enforcement officials are people too. Knowing this and increasing the interpersonal abilities of the average traffic cop may go a long way within many communities, the motorcycling one not being to only place these skills are applicable.

Aside: I am not harping on the average officer, they have a tough job and we (the public) only hear about a small fraction of it. I wish we got more good stories in the media. Some officers are have excellent interpersonal skills, some don't. Everybody has room to improve.

This expansion of understanding could lead to a different decision when the bike gets pulled over during a 2 am blast up a highway, or maybe not. It's a much more complicated problem as I see it.

 

[jc100]

Draconian rules are often draconian for a reason. They act as a deterrent and the bitching and moaning from some in this thread seems to mean they also often work.

 

[mxs]

I don't find Euro drivers any better than Canadian drivers and neither as good as Australian tho most of us would find Australian traffic and enforcement very heavy handed compared to Canada.

Based on what you don't find a difference between Euro drivers and Canadian drivers???

I think you are 100% wrong. I mean to compare these three mass of lands as far as driving is really a bad idea, because of the vast differences in densities and what a driver can encounter on road, and I am not talking about emu or a crocodile ... But rather traffic related volumes and patterns.

 

[Flywheel]

Everyone please stop overusing Draconian. When the government starts hanging homeless people for stealing bread we can shout "Draconian". Also, the libertarians remain unconvincing as ever.

The government could stand to take driver education more seriously. Not sure why we wait until people hit 80 for retesting. It might be expensive to bundle it with license renewal but I would hazard a guess that it may reduce the numbers of drivers who are legends in their own mind.

Watch your tone with those emus. They will seriously FU up dude. Straight up dinosaur descendant justice.

 

[hedo2002]

Neil, laws are written to cover "generalized" situations. You seem to indicate your dislike for speeding laws after a certain time, "if the road is clear and empty." Seeing that you seem to feel officers have no ability to apply common sense, nor take into consideration. Please feel free to enlighten us as to how you would word a law which removes ANY discretion from the officer yet takes into account all possible scenarios.

You are 100% correct all of the previous scenarios I gave can and do occur at less than 100 km/h, (at no point did I suggest they didn't, (talk about putting words in another's mouth), however, surely even you can admit that avoiding any of those scenarios would be MUCH easier than while riding WELL beyond the bikes head lights at 200+ km/h.

Sorry to have tugged at your heart strings, with REAL life experience feel free to post your real world experiences of dealing with the aftermath of fatal and other such devastating crashes. I truly hope you NEVER have to, nor any of family members have to face "that" knock at 2 am.

As I have stated I too support the idea that s172 should have never been enacted, (remembering of course that ALL laws are written by politicians, the police merely enforce they laws as written). Nor have I stated that riding at 130 is dangerous and people should be dealt with any differently than someone doing 10 km/h over the limit, (in that the same charges should be laid). I have and will continue to argue however, that riding at 200 km/h on a PUBLIC road, (keeping in mind that roads such as the autobahn is maintained at a MUCH different standard than are the 400 series of highways). Again my real world experience comes into play as I did several "ride alongs" with the German police, (when i was deployed in my VERY early career).

But obviously your experience and wisdom has given you the insight to see that riding on the 400 at 1 am at 200+ km/h is appropriate, so I will bow out of the discussion.

 

[jc100]

Based on what you don't find a difference between Euro drivers and Canadian drivers???

I think you are 100% wrong. I mean to compare these three mass of lands as far as driving is really a bad idea, because of the vast differences in densities and what a driver can encounter on road, and I am not talking about emu or a crocodile ... But rather traffic related volumes and patterns.

I see a huge difference between drivers in Europe and here and I've lived in both for around 20 years.

 

[Joe Bass]

Where is this Draconia, and why do their laws affect us?

Sent from my custom purple Joe Bass mobile device using Tapatalk

 

[Sabex]

I haven't read the whole thread. But people saying he was only posing a risk to himself at night on the highway. What if he crashed into a barrier, or ended up crashing into a house or a business? That money has to come from someones pocket to repair it.

 

[Neil_V]

But obviously your experience and wisdom has given you the insight to see that riding on the 400 at 1 am at 200+ km/h is appropriate, so I will bow out of the discussion.

I will defer you to my interaction with PrivatePilot; indifferent inference is ignorance, and increasingly inevitable it seems. Not going to lie, glad to see you go. So much of that is tough to digest; the straw in particular

 

[Neil_V]

Why do you want traffic cops trying to solve murders?

Why do we have more traffic cops than beat cops?

 

[Neil_V]

The Europeans entrusted with using the autobahn are also way ahead of the curve when it comes to public nudity. I think that says something about their ability to get down to brass tacks, something which seems to have slipped through fat north american fingers. Judging by most road users the speed limit should be reduced to 50km/hr across the board on hiways and unlimited in school zones as long as you get out to push your vehicle. Additionally, in the interest of continuing public safety, more stringent licensing requirements should be put in place for the 16-67 male demographic.

The tighter the grip, the more that slip through your fingers.

Runners a la ronin on the rise

 

[inreb]

Where is this Draconia, and why do their laws affect us?

Sent from my custom purple Joe Bass mobile device using Tapatalk

It's a nanny state where they ruin your life for speeding. Lots of infighting among the self righteous, they're sending refugees here. You may have noticed.

edit, I just realized I failed to answer your question. It was good one too.

 

[MacDoc]

Based on what you don't find a difference between Euro drivers and Canadian drivers???

I think you are 100% wrong. I mean to compare these three mass of lands as far as driving is really a bad idea, because of the vast differences in densities and what a driver can encounter on road, and I am not talking about emu or a crocodile ... But rather traffic related volumes and patterns

.

I don't really care what you think....it's based on having driven in Canada for 50+ years and various parts of Europe for 40 years. I think the myth better Euro drivers is just that ....a myth. They may have more agile cars and perhaps fewer running wrecks on the road due to tighter inspections .....and I certainly can't speak for Italy where I simply would not drive as from others experience it would make Brampton look like a orderly parade. But the accident rate in Europe is high - and fatality rate far higher.

Europe as a whole has 9.3 fatalities per year per 100,000 inhabititants. and 12.9 per 100,000 vehicles.

Canada has 6 and 9.5

Australia 5.4 and 7.3

United States by comparison is 10.6 and 12.9 per 100,000 vehicles.

Australian experience is only recently and they've clamped on on all sorts of hooligan and poor driving with strict traffic control and very strict graduated licencing and alcohol control.
Your comment on emu and crocodile shows how shallow your knowledge is.

Yet some European countries are outstanding
Germany 4.3 and 6.8
France 6.1 and 7.6

My guess is that the rates reflect more on the quality of the roads and the condition of the vehicles on them in conjunction with the level of driver training/graduated licencing programs than the overall ability of the drivers.

I'll re-iterate ...I don't find any significant differences driving in Western Europe and Canada or Australia and the statistics bear me out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

 

[Dr. Luxurious]

Where is this Draconia,?

Sent from my custom purple Joe Bass mobile device using Tapatalk

...it is a mystical land that lies beyond the forest of misappropriated law enforcement right next to the sea of moral indignation

 

[Jayv]

But the accident rate in Europe is high - and fatality rate far higher.

Europe as a whole has 9.3 fatalities per year per 100,000 inhabititants. and 12.9 per 100,000 vehicles.

Canada has 6 and 9.5

Because Mother Russia.

 

[Neil_V]

I don't really care what you think....it's based on having driven in Canada for 50+ years and various parts of Europe for 40 years. I think the myth better Euro drivers is just that ....a myth. They may have more agile cars and perhaps fewer running wrecks on the road due to tighter inspections .....and I certainly can't speak for Italy where I simply would not drive as from others experience it would make Brampton look like a orderly parade. But the accident rate in Europe is high - and fatality rate far higher.

Europe as a whole has 9.3 fatalities per year per 100,000 inhabititants. and 12.9 per 100,000 vehicles.

Canada has 6 and 9.5

Australia 5.4 and 7.3

United States by comparison is 10.6 and 12.9 per 100,000 vehicles.

Australian experience is only recently and they've clamped on on all sorts of hooligan and poor driving with strict traffic control and very strict graduated licencing and alcohol control.
Your comment on emu and crocodile shows how shallow your knowledge is.

Yet some European countries are outstanding
Germany 4.3 and 6.8
France 6.1 and 7.6

My guess is that the rates reflect more on the quality of the roads and the condition of the vehicles on them in conjunction with the level of driver training/graduated licencing programs than the overall ability of the drivers.

I'll re-iterate ...I don't find any significant differences driving in Western Europe and Canada or Australia and the statistics bear me out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Interesting that the place most famous for its need for speed also has the best statistics regarding fatalities. Speaks volumes. Also refutes the countless logical fallacies put forth by the soap box brigade. #sorrynotsorry

 

[jc100]

North America has nowhere near the kind of narrow streets and urban traffic that Europe has. We have wide boulevards and streets and a mostly block system of side streets and arrow straight highways connecting relatively distant cities and towns. Highways in Europe can have multi lane roundabouts on them and ramps left right and centre within very short distances and mostly historic town centres with 2 lane streets the width of one car and indecipherable one way systems. People keep lane discipline in general though.

The comparisons aren't even at all.

As I said, I've lived (and driven) in both places for around 20 years each and see more dumbasses on the road in Canada than Europe and even the US. I put it down to only one thing which is the level of driver training (ok, maybe 2 things, there's a zero tolerance level of traffic policing in most areas too).

Italians are aggressive drivers, not necessarily bad drivers but then the whole of Europe drives like this mostly due to congestion.

 

[griff2]

Why do we have more traffic cops than beat cops?

We don't. Far from it.

 

[Neil_V]

We don't. Far from it.

You're probbably right. It was a tongue in cheek response to a hopefully tongue in cheek comment

Forum Sponsor