How do you feel about the decline of petrol vehicles?

[PrivatePilot]

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The Volt also required a $2000 220v CopperCreek charger as quoted by the dealer. I did not include the $500 cost to install this in my garage.

The Volt requires no such charger. It comes with a Level 1 charger in the trunk, and on the new 2016+ Volts with a $10 adapter that charger actually functions perfectly as a 240V Level 2 as well. I bet the dealer forgot to mention that while they tried to soak you an insane amount of money for a Level 2 charger that's not only in the trunk already, but if you needed a second, can be bought on Amazon for under $300.

It sounds to me like the dealer basically scared you away, opting to dump the Cruze on you instead at a much bigger profit margin vs what they would have made on the Volt.

THIS is why it's important to do your homework and fully understand a vehicle before just blindly letting the dealer get their hands on you and fill you full of their BS. THIS is the reason people go to the dealerships and get sold 1/2 ton pickup trucks to pull their 40' trailer "because the dealer said it'd tow it!" and then find out it doesn't work.

As for the rest of your argument, I think you should read some of the responses after your last one as much of this was hashed out.

In short, your numbers are wrong still. The old "you have to include all the other fees on top of that" argument was also dealt with - you're paying those fees anyways for the REST of your house usage, the sum of which far exceeds what a Volt would consume (charged once a day) over that month anyways. Yes, some fees are on a sliding scale, but still, you win win win no matter HOW you look at it.

Take a look at Steves bill breakdown - it's quite simple - your estimates of an average per kwh cost are wrong.

 

[PrivatePilot]

No one seems to mention maintence costs.

Oil change as little as every 2 years on a Volt. My wife drives a lot on the ICE commuting and her first oil change happened just a few weeks ago after, what, 9 months of ownership? And it still showed 25% oil life remaining, but our "5 Free oil changes" thingie they gave us expires after 2 years so I figured they were "use them or lose them" and I might as well get it done.

My Volt will easily go the full 2 years without a necessary change as I'm running so little on the engine.

Aside from that, tire rotations, and coolant maintenance once every 8 years or something like that.

For a pure EV like the Bolt the "maintenance schedule" is laughable, basically just tire rotations and replacement cabin air filters for the first 240,000KM.

https://my.chevrolet.com/content/da...17/Chevrolet/BOLT EV/Maintenance Schedule.pdf

IMHO this is one of the reasons some dealers are steering people towards traditional ICE vehicles like they did to Mike - they know the routine maintenance cash cow train comes to an end with EV's. Who wins there, the dealer...or the consumer?

 

[SunnY S]

Just posting the facts.

And that story with the $83 listed cost of fuelling a Honda Clarity wasn't exactly long, long ago either. What WILL the cost be here? Nobody knows. If it's $83 in the USA where fuel is typically dirt cheap compared to us, I think my conversion based on the exchange rate only may have actually been quite generous, actually.

And with a $1.6M cost of a single filling station serving but only a small handful of cars...well, someones going to want to actually make a profit if these actually ever make it to the consumer market, so would one expect any sort of break on the cost of the fuel they dispense?

I stand fast that a charging station in my own driveway is more convenient than ANY other fuel source, short of maybe Natural Gas where you can fuel in your own driveway as well.

Just posting the facts....

In California, Honda gives a $15 thousand dollar, that's US dollars, Hydrogen fuel card with every lease. So essentially, Hydrogen motoring is FREE. No silly chargers to connect every night or go hunting for. Just a 3 to 5 min fill once a week depending on how often you drive.


Last I checked, The Clarity Hydrogen currently has the LONGEST RANGE of any production zero emission car in the world. even the longer than the hyper expensive Tesla

Who's to say a similar program from Honda or the Govnt won't happen here? With all the Green Initiatives the Cdn Gov is promoting, its very likely. They give $14g rebates on EV's don't they?

 

[MacDoc]

If GO moves to hydrogen for trains then a hydrogen personal vehicle might work given there are retail vehicles available from Honda etc.


Hehe

Do you have a Tesla but you miss the experience of having to go to a gas station? We have all been there. A gas company in the Netherlands thinks it has the solution.

They claim to have converted a Tesla Model S to a hydrogen fuel cell powertrain and they want to sell the conversion package.

Home Solar Power
The Holthausen Group, better known as a gas supplier, is also dabbling with hydrogen stations and fuel cell vehicles.

Stefan Holthausen, the company’s founder, announced last week at the ‘Founder Talks‘ in the city of Groningen that they have hacked a Tesla Model S to replace the battery pack with fuel cells and hydrogen tanks.

He claimed that it doubles the range of the car:

“We managed to hack a second-hand Tesla so that it can drive on hydrogen. With this we can more than double the action range.”

https://electrek.co/2017/11/06/tesla-converted-model-s-hydrogen-fuel-cells/

 

[mxs]

It's sad how they ruined a perfectly fine running Tesla car, isn't it?.... Read the article. Just repeats what few of us have been trying to explain to you guys who have high hopes for mass market spread of hydrogen vehicles. They make no sense.

The false hope would have a weak leg to stand on if there was no other clean alternative. We would be stuck with it and would have to hope for best. Fortunately, that is not the case .....

 

[MacDoc]

Well I guess you know better than the major car companies, the engineers and the DOE ....

Shell and Toyota Partner on California Fueling Stations for Hydrogen ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/.../shell-takes-one-small-step-to-fuel-toyota-s-giant-hydr...
Feb 20, 2017 - Royal Dutch Shell Plc will build seven fueling stations for hydrogen cars in California through a partnership with Toyota Motor Corp., laying down their latest bet on ... (Toyota began its U.S. promotional campaign for Mirai in April 2015 with a video documentary on generating hydrogen using cow manure.).

and closer to home

Canadian Tire Corporation to Deploy Fuel Cell Systems from Nuvera

Nuvera
On February 7, Canadian Tire Corporation (CTC) announced that it will be replacing lead acid batteries with hydrogen fuel cell technology to power forklifts at two of its Ontario distribution centers. The switch to fuel cells, manufactured by Nuvera, comes after CTC conducted five years of testing and evaluation on hydrogen fuel cells to power mobile equipment.

 

[mxs]

No, not really. But I can read and think what other, smarter than you or me, people think of the fool cell for mass transport ... "hydrogen fuel cells to power mobile equipment."

Really???? Is that somehow supposed to indicate that I will be able to choose from 10 different fool cell vehicles on the market and fuel it comfortably at variety of places, while costing me less than running electrical car?

 

[mxs]

Yes, some fees are on a sliding scale, but still, you win win win no matter HOW you look at it.

What is this "sliding scale" I have seen people to speak of. The hydro I am with, has no such thing when TOU pricing is used. Is that for Tiered pricing, referring to sliding scale of electricity rate <600<1000kWh ...? How is that relevant to TOU? What am I missing?

 

[SunnY S]

.. Read the article. Just repeats what few of us have been trying to explain to you guys who have high hopes for mass market spread of hydrogen vehicles. They make no sense.

The false hope would have a weak leg to stand on if there was no other clean alternative. We would be stuck with it and would have to hope for best. Fortunately, that is not the case .....

Why would anyone expect any thing less from a site named "Electrek" which surely has a bias towards electric cars?


on another note.. "Hesla", thats pretty cool.

 

[SunnY S]

Well I guess you know better than the major car companies, the engineers and the DOE ....



and closer to home

we have 2 hydrogen filling stations coming soon to Toronto....


https://www.canadianmanufacturing.c...eling-stations-as-feds-shell-out-1-6m-190177/



Hydrogen baby, its coming sooner than you think!

 

[mxs]

Here's another decent article explaining the electricity costs involved .... http://www.timetoelectrify.ca/ontario-monthly-ev-cost/ ..... arriving to the already previously stated numbers. It really is as easy as 10$ per each 5000km driven, on average. Very simple. Obviously as long the TOU off-peak rate stay where it's currently at.

 

[PrivatePilot]

If GO moves to hydrogen for trains then a hydrogen personal vehicle might work given there are retail vehicles available from Honda etc.

- They're not available outside California.

- You can't buy one, only lease it, and you have to give it back when Honda decides they want it back. Reminiscent of the EV1, actually.

- They don't even sell them here as it's been mentioned in most articles that they are basically compliance cars to meet California Air Resource Board requirements.

- You can get a Hyundai Tuscon if you want, that's your ONLY choice, and like the Honda, you can't buy it, only lease it, and Hyundai wants it back when you're done with it. There's 1 single one in Ontario right now, and it's owner also owns the fuel station for it through his Hydrogen company...surprise surprise. The lease is over $600/month after tax...but yes, to it's advantage, it comes with free hydrogen for the duration of the lease, as long as you don't mind living with the fact you're on a leash to those fuelling stations..

Some continue to scream about range anxiety and "inconvenient charging locations" in EV's but are apparently perfectly cool with the prospect of buying a hydrogen powered car with what may be only perhaps 2 or 3 locations in the entire province to fuel them at. Us EV owners who can charge at any one of the countless tens of thousands of locations, or at any receptacle...anywhere...will be laughing when the Hydrogen car owners are stuck on a 150-200KM leash to their nearest hydrogen station. That'll be pretty awesome never being able to go any further west than London, further East than Kingston, or Further north than Huntsville, or maybe Algonquin if you're lucky.

Don't mistake any of this as a dig on the technology - I think a hydrogen car would be awesome, and I see the benefits...BUT...it would be like someone here jumping up and down 15 years ago about how electric cars are the way of the future without the slightest regard to the realities of public support infrastructure for charging.

Like it or not, the EV vs Hydrogen argument is another VHS vs Betamax vs Laserdisc (for those old enough here to remember those) battle, and we all know which one won that fight. EV's are VHS right now and have reached the point of viability, whereas hydrogen cars are the Betamax - technically slightly superior, sure, but losing the fight and fading into the background noise.

 

[SunnY S]

^^^^

He's missing the point, Hydrogen cars are gaining momentum.... fast.


I won't post the link, but the high thinkers in the auto industry when designing their future product road map predict hydrogen will leap frog electric cars in the next 10 years. thats why you are seeing new deals like Honda and GM collaborating to produce Hydrogen cells, and other automakers are coming on board, fast.



EDIT : see what I mean, just found this gem. even Volvo who proclaimed "electric only future"..... https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/volvo-considering-hydrogen-power-116901.html

 

[SunnY S]

If GO moves to hydrogen for trains then a hydrogen personal vehicle might work given there are retail vehicles available from Honda etc.

/

you can lease a Hyundai Tucson Hydrogen soon. cost is $0 down and $529cdn per month, and hydrogen fuel is included. and all maintenance and roadside assistance included if you run out of gas.This is great if you are on a budget and want to know what you will be shelling monthly for your transportation costs, less insurance.

if you live near one of the refuelling stations coming to Toronto, this could be a good deal. FREE FUEL for the life of your lease, and no silly charging nonsense, no looking for plug in places, longer range than Bolt, longer range than the gas version of the Tucson.


http://www.hyundaihydrogen.ca



FAQ http://www.hyundaihydrogen.ca/faq/



Think of it, while the electric car folks are all jockeying for the 1 or 2 charging parking spots at the mall and waiting HOURS for a charge, you can park wherever you want, and then cruise on by with your Hydrogen car and wave bye bye. LOL.

 

[Bagman]

It's progress. It sad to imagine a world without petrol engines, and motorcycles as we know them today - but that is because we are looking at it through the lens of our current construct. Social, economic, etc.. etc.. I look forward to be able to jump into my personal drone or space craft and go 'flying' rather than 'driving!' lol.

 

[PrivatePilot]

 

[meester_jamie]

Did the math 3153 kw / $366.07 = 8.6 c per kwh and that is at higher low density distribution rates.

why did you do the math backwards? you divided kwhr by dollars,, it is cents per kwhr ,,, or Cents/kwh ,, so in your case,, 36607cents /3153kwhr = 11.61 cents per kwhr.

 

[Scuba Steve]

why did you do the math backwards? you divided kwhr by dollars,, it is cents per kwhr ,,, or Cents/kwh ,, so in your case,, 36607cents /3153kwhr = 11.61 cents per kwhr.

Doh appreciate the correction i was surprised by how low it was with a 100 dollar delivery charge making up almost a 1/4 of the bill. I did have the math backwards 11.6 isnt bad for averaged usage but not as good as 8.3

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[MacDoc]

I look forward to be able to jump into my personal drone or space craft and go 'flying' rather than 'driving!' lol.

Catch a preview - get your sailplane licence up at Arthur
http://yorksoaring.com/index.php/take-a-ride/introductory-flight

This was my fav plane in their fleet and I noticed it was in the Smithsonian Aerospace museum.

[video=youtube;kqB9KaN3J6k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqB9KaN3J6k[/video]

Cool bucket list acheivement and a nice ride up to gliderport ( 20 minutes from the Forks ).
Drop in on a fluufy white cloud day and go a flight ....you never know ...you might get hooked.
I did and 40 days later was a solo pilot.

As to space ....well...we're getting there 52,000' - no motor and the goal is 90,000'.

https://www.engadget.com/2017/09/05/glider-sets-altitude-record/

Might even be an EV in the works

 

[meester_jamie]

ummm maybe the engineers haven't considered that the large majority of people will charge their cars during the off peak hours. Shouldn't be a need to build more infrastructure than normal ...

You can be guaranteed electricity rates will rise. I've talked to numerous electrical engineers at the utility we deal with who are scratching their heads over the amount of money required to update the electrical systems of every city to handle the extra load of electric cars.

Yes sir, the local utility will be downloading the charges to you and me. Like Electric motors and batteries, transformers aren't cheap.

Changing gears, if you need an explained link of the various new tech coming to cars...

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/glo...vigate-hybrid-vehicleoptions/article37537724/

Right. So the sudden load of potentially thousands and thousands of people charging their 80amp load cars at "off peak" hours all night and into the next morning won't tax the grid?

you don't have to wait for the load to go up.. the infrastructure required to install a charge has to be taken into consideration in the LDC Rates as of right NOW...(rate applications for increase to your bill are submitted already) because every building permit * as of 2018 will require a 200A electric panel, and the conduit installed to the garage for a EV Charger.
The LDC has to install the transformers, wires, poles, that are sized for this ... which is close to 2X that of previous to 2018...
http://www.demarcoallan.com/single-post/2017/05/26/Ontario-Releases-Building-Code-Changes-Targeted-at-Making-it-Easier-to-Charge-in-Many-New-Residential-and-Workplace-Buildings
Detached houses, semi-detached houses or row houses* containing not more than two dwelling units served by a garage, carport or driveway are required to have installed, unless a code official approves of an alternative solution:

200 amp—A minimum 200 amp panel board;
Conduit—A conduit that is not less than 27mm trade size and is equipped with a means to allow cables to be pulled into the conduit; and
Outlet box—A square 4'11/16" trade-size electrical outlet box installed in the garage or carport or adjacent to the driveway (Building Code ss. 3.1.21.1(3) and 9.34.4.1(3)).

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