VW deisel?? wtf... | Page 5 | GTAMotorcycle.com

VW deisel?? wtf...

My money is on them paying a fine for each vehicle (~1000) and doing very little to fix the problem (eg. emissions controls stay on at idle, but continue with current operation above idle). It they reduce mileage/hp/dpf life significantly the class action suit will eclipse the fine.

The potential fine for Volkswagen is $37,500 for each offending vehicle sold in the US, and that could tally up to $18 billion. Individuals found responsible face a potential fine of $3,750 per vehicle sold in the US.

Given that the testing cheat was a deliberate cheat and not an unexpected design or manufacturing failure, regulators will not be likely inclined to go easy on VW with a paltry $1,000 per vehicle fine for either the corporate entity or individuals deemed responsible.
 
I haven't been able to find a reliable source that has details of how they bypassed it to fool the testing. Guess we'll wait until it's released or someone leaks it.

I would suspect that under "normal" driving conditions the software was calibrated for much leaner operation, improving economy and reducing soot production, but in turn increase NOx production. Interestingly, this would likely also reduce the number DPF regeneration cycles, which impact performance. Not to mention an increased number of DPF regeneration cycles will severely diminish service life since the ash accumulates in the DPF as the soot is burned off. Of note, the VW DPF is non-serviceable, and at last check, nearly $4000.

I always wondered how VW killed the NOx without urea... Guess the answer is, they didn't.
 
Story I was given was the OBD computer when connected to a drive clean analyzer turns on the pollution sensors and it looks all good, when disconnected they revert to the original program of decent mileage and hp, and 40 times the legal emmissions.....

The really awful part is they (VW) does not have a fix that gives 1000km per tank and 140hp and meets emissions. They are truly screwed on this, and allegedly they have been on this for years, in a secret Nazi lab in the mountains.
 
I haven't been able to find a reliable source that has details of how they bypassed it to fool the testing. Guess we'll wait until it's released or someone leaks it.

was just released the OBD software noted steering wheel position, speed of the vehicle, barometric pressure?? and how long the engine had been running to determine the car was sitting in a lab not on the road. Its brilliant computer engineering, but they got caught.

Interesting they got caught by an independent watchdog agency, not the EPA (most corrupt going). The independent agency tested the vehicles on the road using real time testing, they used two VW models and a BMW and the Beemer passed everything the VW's were 30% on the wrong side on the equation. This was two years ago and VW denied the testing data.
 
was just released the OBD software noted steering wheel position, speed of the vehicle, barometric pressure?? and how long the engine had been running to determine the car was sitting in a lab not on the road. Its brilliant computer engineering, but they got caught.

Interesting they got caught by an independent watchdog agency, not the EPA (most corrupt going). The independent agency tested the vehicles on the road using real time testing, they used two VW models and a BMW and the Beemer passed everything the VW's were 30% on the wrong side on the equation. This was two years ago and VW denied the testing data.

Good find!

If only they could have fixed it instead of letting it go on for so many years.
 
Good find!

If only they could have fixed it instead of letting it go on for so many years.


they were prepared to keep on denying it until the govt told them they could not sell any 2016 models.

thats what triggered this whole thing....
 
I haven't paid attention, does the driveclean test read a firmware version or something similar? If it does, the driveclean pass may require a firmware number higher than that which implemented the fix. Again, this may not be hard with a chip to feed the info to the driveclean computer.
No, the emissions are supposed to be legal regardless of the firmware version.

Nothing will change with Drive Clean. The cars will indicate that all emissions components are operating as designed, which is essentially what the OBDII monitors. The fact that the components were designed to emit more pollutants than allowed all along is not a problem of Drive Clean. That's a problem of EPA and Transport Canada who validate emissions systems for ever model sold. It's that validation that was circumvented, not Drive Clean.
 
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I think I've read enough articles out there to safely predict that Das Auto ist kaput.
 
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Well, VW (corporation) will survive this, and VWoA will survive, but they are certainly going to see a financial hit for whatever it costs to deal with this plus certainly a hit to their reputation. Toyota survived accelerator-pedal-gate, GM will survive ignition-switch-gate, Honda will survive Takata-airbag-gate, VW will survive diesel-emissions-gate. The other manufacturers are selling just as many cars as they did before their respective catastrophe.

I suspect that the SCR-equipped cars - the ones that require "diesel exhaust fluid" or "AdBlue" - which is 2012-on Passat TDI and all models 2015-on including the 2016 models being held at port - will be fixable with a reflash. Evidently the Passat has been using DEF at a rate of about 1% of the fuel consumption, compared to "industry norm" of about 3%, so it may require increasing the DEF application rate. The car will require the DEF tank to be refilled more often, but that is no big deal. It may take a while for VW to prove to the EPA that their reflash works, given that they were already given an opportunity to do that and threw it away. (the recent emissions reflash on those cars didn't do what it needed to do)

The bigger trouble will be the LNT-equipped cars - 2009-2014 Jetta, Golf, New Beetle, Audi A3. Unfortunately, that's most of the 480,000 affected cars. The cars were able to pass the emission testing in some fashion, but there has to be a darn good reason VW didn't leave that low-emissions mode active all the time, and my educated guess is that the extra rich-mixture and high-EGR operation necessary to regenerate the LNT will clog the DPF prematurely, and the cars won't pass the durability requirements.

They are going to have to re-flash these cars to operate in low-emissions mode all the time ... but that had better go hand-in-hand with an ironclad and longer emission control warranty. Replacing the DPF every few tens of thousands of kilometers (my guess) will get old fast. It will also get expensive. There is no chance of retrofitting SCR - it's too expensive. There is some chance of doing what Mercedes did with the 2007 - 2009 E320CDI ... use LNT in conjunction with SCR; the LNT can be designed to produce the ammonia that the SCR needs. This will require an exhaust system redesign plus re-flashing the computer. Problem here is that such a redesign would take a year or two to design and validate and tool up to build 400,000 of them. The older of these cars won't be worth what this fix will cost to do. It's quite possible that VW will offer a buy-back on all of the LNT-equipped cars in North America. (There are about 11 million affected worldwide, but those sold in areas with less stringent standards may not need as much done to fix them)

This could very well be the biggest buy-back and scrap campaign ever. Nissan bought back 33,000 vans in the early nineties because they couldn't stop them from catching fire. Toyota has bought back and scrapped an unknown but increasing number of Tacoma trucks for having frames that rust apart.
 
This could very well be the biggest buy-back and scrap campaign ever. Nissan bought back 33,000 vans in the early nineties because they couldn't stop them from catching fire. Toyota has bought back and scrapped an unknown but increasing number of Tacoma trucks for having frames that rust apart.

My guess is that will have a much worse impact on the environment than just leaving the cars on the road.
 
I wonder if there could be a scenario where re-engining these vehicles with gasoline drivetrains makes economic sense for somebody. Or if they all end up on a boat to somewhere else, like a reverse Iraqi Malibu situation
 
Well, VW (corporation) will survive this, and VWoA will survive, but they are certainly going to see a financial hit for whatever it costs to deal with this plus certainly a hit to their reputation. Toyota survived accelerator-pedal-gate, GM will survive ignition-switch-gate, Honda will survive Takata-airbag-gate, VW will survive diesel-emissions-gate. The other manufacturers are selling just as many cars as they did before their respective catastrophe.

I suspect that the SCR-equipped cars - the ones that require "diesel exhaust fluid" or "AdBlue" - which is 2012-on Passat TDI and all models 2015-on including the 2016 models being held at port - will be fixable with a reflash. Evidently the Passat has been using DEF at a rate of about 1% of the fuel consumption, compared to "industry norm" of about 3%, so it may require increasing the DEF application rate. The car will require the DEF tank to be refilled more often, but that is no big deal. It may take a while for VW to prove to the EPA that their reflash works, given that they were already given an opportunity to do that and threw it away. (the recent emissions reflash on those cars didn't do what it needed to do)

The bigger trouble will be the LNT-equipped cars - 2009-2014 Jetta, Golf, New Beetle, Audi A3. Unfortunately, that's most of the 480,000 affected cars. The cars were able to pass the emission testing in some fashion, but there has to be a darn good reason VW didn't leave that low-emissions mode active all the time, and my educated guess is that the extra rich-mixture and high-EGR operation necessary to regenerate the LNT will clog the DPF prematurely, and the cars won't pass the durability requirements.

They are going to have to re-flash these cars to operate in low-emissions mode all the time ... but that had better go hand-in-hand with an ironclad and longer emission control warranty. Replacing the DPF every few tens of thousands of kilometers (my guess) will get old fast. It will also get expensive. There is no chance of retrofitting SCR - it's too expensive. There is some chance of doing what Mercedes did with the 2007 - 2009 E320CDI ... use LNT in conjunction with SCR; the LNT can be designed to produce the ammonia that the SCR needs. This will require an exhaust system redesign plus re-flashing the computer. Problem here is that such a redesign would take a year or two to design and validate and tool up to build 400,000 of them. The older of these cars won't be worth what this fix will cost to do. It's quite possible that VW will offer a buy-back on all of the LNT-equipped cars in North America. (There are about 11 million affected worldwide, but those sold in areas with less stringent standards may not need as much done to fix them)

This could very well be the biggest buy-back and scrap campaign ever. Nissan bought back 33,000 vans in the early nineties because they couldn't stop them from catching fire. Toyota has bought back and scrapped an unknown but increasing number of Tacoma trucks for having frames that rust apart.
Excellent post, best technical insight I've read on the subject anywhere, thanks.

Not so sure about VW surviving, they might, but there's a real potential for them to fold too. This is not like those other recalls which were a combination of errors and negligence without any deliberate attempt to cause harm. This VW is more of an Enron scale disaster where the company very purposefully and methodically set out to defraud governments, consumers, and the greater public. We'll have to wait and see what happens.
 
My guess is that will have a much worse impact on the environment than just leaving the cars on the road.

Of course. Logic and common sense have no place in dealings with government regulators!

A fairly likely outcome is that VW recalls and fixes the SCR-equipped cars, and negotiates some sort of intermediate fix for the LNT-equipped cars involving a re-flash that doesn't quite fully achieve compliant results but allows them to stay on the road, and pays a pretty-big (but not maxed out) per-vehicle fine for the privilege of doing so.

I wonder if there could be a scenario where re-engining these vehicles with gasoline drivetrains makes economic sense for somebody. Or if they all end up on a boat to somewhere else, like a reverse Iraqi Malibu situation

There is no way a gas-engine retrofit would be an economically viable solution at the manufacturer level. At best, one would end up with a glut of used three-year-old gas-engine Jettas with a blighted history, which could likely only be sold at a fire-sale price. A substantial number of parts buried deep inside the vehicle are different between the gas engine and diesel models. Yes, it all "bolts in", but it is a lot of stuff to remove and replace. Expensive project with not much to gain. VW would rather sell you a complete new one.

You could likely ship them out and sell them offshore in developing-world countries that don't have stringent emission laws and aren't fussy about US-compliant versus rest-of-world-compliant vehicles, but how many US-spec diesel Jettas do they want in Uruguay and is it worth what it would cost to organize that, and who's gonna pay?

If the EPA won't relent and VW can't fix the cars to an acceptable level, a buy-back gets them out of all the class action lawsuits that would surely follow if they ended up hobbling the way the vehicle operates and it gets them out of all the class action lawsuits for "diminished value", etc. It could easily be a year or two before all this shakes out ... unless they do a buy-back starting (almost) immediately; they don't have to wait for the engineers to come up with a fix and validate it with no guarantee of success if they do a buy-back ...
 
This is pretty funny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKef1JFpiCA

Considering all this I wonder how well the Chevy Cruze Diesel would fare under similar testing...
 
I would not like to be a commissioned car salesman on the vw lot for the next six months............
 
A people's car... A possible group civil suit is coming.
 
A people's car... A possible group civil suit is coming.


Last I read there are already "two dozen" class action lawsuits in progress.
 

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