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towing vehicle advise

Another way is to get a deep drop hitch and weight the trailer by nosing it down. May not be ideal, but should get you home at least. A lot of people haven't got a clue how to weight the nose of a trailer, you don't want it to be any higher than level, but you don't want it more than slightly slanted down. It's that simple.

For 6K pounds you are going to need a large gas engine or a diesel to be comfortable with it and if you are towing it any distance, it needs to be a manual or have a transmission cooler. There's lots of trucks claiming high tow ratings (even 10K) that will barely tow 6K at highway speeds and will be tough to merge with, i.e. you will need a clear lane and the full on-ramp to get up to highway speed with your foot planted on the floor.

I towed that frequently with my last gas 6L/6SPD truck and it was managable up to 7700lbs but absolutely drank gas doing legal speeds on the highway (35L/100K+) . The motor was howling and changing gear between 4th and 5th constantly and it was hard on the nerves to drive it. That truck had a rating of 10,800 but I doubt you could have towed much over 9000 anywhere but a country road at 80kph or that you'd enjoy much of it. At around 6,000# it was more reasonable.

So, prepare to find a 5.7L or larger engine - or go diesel.

On that subject, I bought a 6.6L 2500HD diesel truck this spring and it pulls that same 7700# toy hauler so nicely... sits in 6th gear at 125kph getting 24L/100km fuel milage and nothing bothers it, not even mountains (it has an exhaust brake too). Coming back from Grattan this year, we ramped it up to 135kph for hours and blitzed past traffic. It's as expensive as a small house but I do love it... like everything there is a trade-off, have been pulled over and had to explain to a cop that I am *NOT* using it for commercial use despite being over 4500kg laden.

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(that 21' trailer beside the camper is about 6000# laden with four bikes as it has a full steel frame and can carry a car if desired)
 
Brian P said:
Some of the half-ton pickups have a total in-vehicle payload in the 1300 - 1400 lb range. If you have a 8000 lb (GVWR) trailer at the recommended 10% tongue weight, you are now down to only being able to have 500 - 600 lbs inside the vehicle. Two or three people in the cab, and NOTHING else, and you have used that up!
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Yes. With my gas 6L truck, I towed over-weight, every time I towed my toy-hauler. Having my friend, our wives, the generator etc. in the back was almost double the limits of the truck's rating. For that reason I usually put as much as I could in the toyhauler itself and just hoped for the best. It was the biggest 1500 series truck that GM made in 2009. :/ My new 2500HD has a 3450# load rating and 14800# tow rating!
 
Shaman said:
Another way is to get a deep drop hitch and weight the trailer by nosing it down. May not be ideal, but should get you home at least. A lot of people haven't got a clue how to weight the nose of a trailer, you don't want it to be any higher than level, but you don't want it more than slightly slanted down. It's that
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I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, however if you were suggesting that the height of the hitch has a significant effect on the tongue weight on the trailer, that is almost universally false. A few pounds at best, but statistically insignificant. If you want to prove it to yourself simply put a bathroom scale under the tongue jack and crank it up and down – you will see very little difference.

It will have a more notable effect on the weight distribution on the trailer axles on a tandem - nose down will remove weight from the trailing axle and increase the weight on the leading axle, and vice versa nose up will decrease the weight on the leading axle but increase it on the trailing axle. This is the basis behind it being geometrically important how your hitch is set up – the trailer should be as level as possible when the combination is loaded and travelling down the road.
 
GreyGhost said:
Since there are a lot of knowledgeable people in here, I will throw in a question instead of making my own thread.

I have a sailboat trailer (~1000lbs loaded, ~25' long x 6' wide x 6' tall). The trailer was built with way too low a tongue weight (~5 lbs). Obviously it doesn't behave well at speed (Over 90 km/h it starts to dance). It would require a lot of cutting and welding to fix it properly. Has anyone every used ballast to fix this situation (eg a few 5 gallon buckets filled with water near the front of the trailer)? Obviously the tongue weight would be better, but I would have made the whole trailer heavier which is never great.
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I had a custom trailer made for my 5000 lb sailboat and the manufacturer got the dimensions wrong. The result was no tongue weight.

I discovered this after getting the boat crane loaded at the marina and starting for home about 15 miles away. Towing about 6000 pounds behind a F-150 was a nightmare. I made it home but the boat got moved forward before it took another trip. With proper weight on the tongue it was nicely balanced. I'm not a believer in extra weight so ballasting it out would only be a temporary measure, something I never thought of on the way home.

Second point if if not already mentioned is tongue length. I dropped in to see a mechanic friend just as a guy brought in an extended van type RV for a safety. The guy mentioned he would be towing a trailer 4000-500 pounds and the answer was "Don't do it".

The van extension was behind the rear axle and the extra leverage would let the trailer push the van around particularly on corners.
 
Pilot: when you nose the trailer down, it makes it less likely for it to go the OTHER direction over bumps etc. When the trailer goes above level at the front, it's much more likely to sway. It's not a matter of there really being more weight on the tongue with that setup, but that weight is less likely to transfer FROM the tongue to the rear of the trailer over uneven road surfaces. In extreme cases, when a trailer goes above a certain tongue height, it can unload the rear wheels of the truck considerably.

Bad juju. Take my advice, it's better the tongue be low in the front when the trailer isn't weighted right.
 
I agree that improper weight distribution on a trailer is a concern, with a zero tongue weight being bad, and a negative tongue weight being especially dangerous, however the angle of the tongue in such scenario makes zero difference - The tongue weight stays the same. A trailer with 0 pounds of tongue weight riding level will behave no differently than a trailer with 0 pounds of tongue weight with the hitch 7-9 inches lower... which (except for large raised pick ups) is the typical amount of hitch adjustment available.

To the contrary, on a tandem axle trailer, it may actually make the problem worse since the axles will no longer be equally loaded, leaving the leading axle potentially overloaded and squirming on the side walls, while the rear axle has less traction as a result.

Ultimately, if the trailer is going to behave badly, it's going to do it whether the tongue is pointed up in the air or nearly dragging on the ground. Shifting weight on the trailer, adding a friction or geometry based sway control (like a Hensley Hitch), or in the case of excessive tongue weight, adding a weight distribution hitch are the only things that are going to help, aside from the choice of tow vehicles as...well which can obviously play a big part in the equation - IE, a 3500 series 1 Ton isn't going to be effected the same way with a poorly loaded utility trailer (hauling say, a lawn tractor) as would a subcompact car doing the same.
 
Shaman said:
Pilot: when you nose the trailer down, it makes it less likely for it to go the OTHER direction over bumps etc. When the trailer goes above level at the front, it's much more likely to sway. It's not a matter of there really being more weight on the tongue with that setup, but that weight is less likely to transfer FROM the tongue to the rear of the trailer over uneven road surfaces. In extreme cases, when a trailer goes above a certain tongue height, it can unload the rear wheels of the truck considerably.

Bad juju. Take my advice, it's better the tongue be low in the front when the trailer isn't weighted right.
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The trailer travels roughly level. In this instance I can't lower the tongue or I could start to run into problems with the mast hitting the roof of the car.

As far as this trailer goes, raising the tongue from 0" above the road to 5' above the road changes the tongue weight from about +5 to -5 lbs (~2 lbs/ft).

It normally only gets trailered twice a year and is reasonably well behaved at <85 km/h (It's been through the 507 multiple times with no problems). I will go with ballast next spring.

^Nice looking truck Shaman.
 
It's not a matter of tongue weight, fellas. It's a matter of where the weight balance is. Take your suitcase with wheels and drag it - drag it with the handle down low and then drag it with the handle up high and rear-balanced. What happens? No weight has changed, only shifted in balance.
 
PrivatePilot said:
I agree that improper weight distribution on a trailer is a concern, with a zero tongue weight being bad, and a negative tongue weight being especially dangerous, however the angle of the tongue in such scenario makes zero difference - The tongue weight stays the same. A trailer with 0 pounds of tongue weight riding level will behave no differently than a trailer with 0 pounds of tongue weight with the hitch 7-9 inches lower... which (except for large raised pick ups) is the typical amount of hitch adjustment available.

To the contrary, on a tandem axle trailer, it may actually make the problem worse since the axles will no longer be equally loaded, leaving the leading axle potentially overloaded and squirming on the side walls, while the rear axle has less traction as a result.

Ultimately, if the trailer is going to behave badly, it's going to do it whether the tongue is pointed up in the air or nearly dragging on the ground. Shifting weight on the trailer, adding a friction or geometry based sway control (like a Hensley Hitch), or in the case of excessive tongue weight, adding a weight distribution hitch are the only things that are going to help, aside from the choice of tow vehicles as...well which can obviously play a big part in the equation - IE, a 3500 series 1 Ton isn't going to be effected the same way with a poorly loaded utility trailer (hauling say, a lawn tractor) as would a subcompact car doing the same.
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i think you have some leverage principal wrong there, on a single axle trailer which is GreyGhosts concern, the angle of the tongue will effect the tongue load significantly. Its heavy coming off the ground, balances at the balance point ( think wheelbarrow) and then becomes hard to hold down once it passes the balance point. Decent tonque weight is your friend, within the spec of your hitch.
 
crankcall said:
i think you have some leverage principal wrong there, on a single axle trailer which is GreyGhosts concern, the angle of the tongue will effect the tongue load significantly. Its heavy coming off the ground, balances at the balance point ( think wheelbarrow) and then becomes hard to hold down once it passes the balance point. Decent tonque weight is your friend, within the spec of your hitch.
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A good way to put it. PP doesn't seem to grok balance. And while yes on a tandem axle trailer the front axle takes a bit more of the load with downtilt, that is what suspension is for, and I'll still take it over the trailer suddenly trying to steer the truck when going down the hill at Napanee etc. as I have personally witnessed as a cause for a nightmare crash into the divider.
 
Shaman said:
It's not a matter of tongue weight, fellas. It's a matter of where the weight balance is. Take your suitcase with wheels and drag it - drag it with the handle down low and then drag it with the handle up high and rear-balanced. What happens? No weight has changed, only shifted in balance.
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It's geometry, guys. Plain and simple. Using a wheeled suitcase is apples and oranges because the geometry is simply not the same as a trailer with the axle in the middle (or typically slightly behind to generate tongue weight) of the CofG of the weight bearing structure of the trailer.

For example...put 2 people of exactly the same weight on a seesaw and what happens. THIS is the geometric equivalent of a trailer with the axle in the exact centre...not a wheeled suitcase. The weight does not magically change whether one person is in the air or on the ground! Further to that, if you must...have somebody on the seesaw sit on a 2 x 4 that is a few feet long (to simulate a trailer tongue) and for all intents and purposes nothing changes - people can still go up and down on the seesaw but the exertion on the 2 x 4 to move them in either direction is the same through the entire movement.

Geometry!

The weight still balances over the pivot point no matter the angle of the parallel portion. That ONLY changes when you exceed a 45 degree angle...something that is simply not applicable to a trailer.

Doesn't everyone remember this from from grade school math??

pyramid-inverse-relationship1.jpg


i think you have some leverage principal wrong there, on a single axle trailer which is GreyGhosts concern, the angle of the tongue will effect the tongue load significantly. Its heavy coming off the ground, balances at the balance point ( think wheelbarrow) and then becomes hard to hold down once it passes the balance point. Decent tonque weight is your friend, within the spec of your hitch.
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I suggest you go and find a trailer with some weight on it and try this out for yourself, because you will soon discover that until you get beyond a 45° angle the tongue weight remains basically the same from sitting on the ground right up to any realistic hitch angle. Again, using a wheelbarrow as an example is no better than using the suitcase as an example – the wheel position completely changes the geometry and he is simply not applicable as a comparison against a typical trailer with the axle in the centre of the designed load area.

Trailers that have axles in nontraditional locations may slightly change the math, however any changes typically results in a *static* increase or decrease of tongue weight - it still does not magically change significantly with angle unless the axle was theoretically so far forward that the trailer is basically untowable to begin with.
 
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OK then, you do it your way and I'll do it mine. What do I know, I've only towed a couple hundred thousand kilometers in my life. You know, so far so good, as they say.
 
Shaman said:
OK then, you do it your way and I'll do it mine. What do I know, I've only towed a couple hundred thousand kilometers in my life.
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I tow for a living. Been doing so for 20+ years. The geometry for what I drive on a daily basis (and what I'm actually sitting in as I type this for that matter) is all different because I'm 70 feet long with way different axle positions, however that's all moot for the point of discussion regarding a typical consumer-level trailer with the axle typically slightly behind the CofG...the part that makes the tongue weight to begin with.

Are you denying the theory behind the teetor-totter example? Because geometry doesn't lie.
 
Sorry, not arguing with you. Going to take my personal experience with trailers less than 53' long and keep applying it. Enjoy your day.
 
Shaman said:
Sorry, not arguing with you. Going to take my personal experience with trailers less than 53' long and keep applying it.
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Respectfully, then don't post it online as fact for others to take advice from though...because it's incorrect. ;)

If you really want to get into the the math behind it...there's cosine angles and some trigonometry involved. I can go further, but most people start to understand how little tongue weight is effected by trailer angle using the simple seesaw example I posted earlier.

Cheers.
 
Yeah, it's not possible that you'll cause an accident with that advice at all. Right?

Everyone knows that road surfaces are perfectly flat, trailers are perfectly constructed; loads are perfectly balanced and never shift, right? Everyone's a professional when it comes to getting trailer loads properly balanced and strapped. Right? Taking a simple and effective precaution is just a waste of time. Right?
 
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Shaman said:
Everyone knows that road surfaces are perfectly flat, trailers are perfectly constructed; loads are perfectly balanced and never shift, right? Taking any precaution is just a waste of time. Right?
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Sure, the math completely changes when variables come into play...but that's beyond the scope of this discussion and impossible to account for in a generalized discussion without people posting weights from various points on the trailer, photos, etc.

Most trailers are designed to haul a load centered slightly forward of the axle. Many trailers are designed in such a way (ie, travel trailers) so that the load typically falls into that range automatically when loaded in a typical fashion. Boat trailers are designed around the "average boat". Utility trailers usually come with a sticker somewhere indicating how to load the trailer properly...again, load slightly ahead of the axle - tongue heavy is better than tongue light, basically.

However despite all of that....geometry is a constant.
 
A high tow-ball location relative to the track width and length has some potentially interesting bump-steer and roll-steer implications. If something upsets the trailer causing one wheel to go off the ground - trailer suspension isn't known for being compliant! - the entire trailer including the axle pivots around an axis between the tow-ball location and the tire contact patch that is remaining on the ground. I am thinking this will cause toe-in on the wheel remaining on the ground - which tries to "steer" the trailer inward, which increases the roll moment. If the center of gravity is high enough as well, I can see this causing some instability. It isn't a problem for a 53-foot trailer because the trailer is so long that minor bump-steer isn't significant.

Ever see one of those narrow tow-behind air compressors or generators wobble behind whatever is pulling it? That's the situation I'm talking about. Narrow, short, high, no suspension compliance to speak of.
 
Brian P said:
A high tow-ball location relative to the track width and length has some potentially interesting bump-steer and roll-steer implications. If something upsets the trailer causing one wheel to go off the ground - trailer suspension isn't known for being compliant! - the entire trailer including the axle pivots around an axis between the tow-ball location and the tire contact patch that is remaining on the ground. I am thinking this will cause toe-in on the wheel remaining on the ground - which tries to "steer" the trailer inward, which increases the roll moment. If the center of gravity is high enough as well, I can see this causing some instability. It isn't a problem for a 53-foot trailer because the trailer is so long that minor bump-steer isn't significant.

Ever see one of those narrow tow-behind air compressors or generators wobble behind whatever is pulling it? That's the situation I'm talking about. Narrow, short, high, no suspension compliance to speak of.
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I don't think bump steering is what you think it is...

Nevertheless, the 4% of positive camber for 1 second isn't going to "turn" the trailer, the direction of the force causing a wheel to lift will.

And most small trailers have a small, short, solid axle with no suspension, so that's why they lift when they hit a large bump in the road.
 
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