SIU investigation of motorcycle running from cops..

[hedo2002]

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Reading some of these responses hurts my head. As with all human to human interaction, things are not black and white.

No, they aren't black and white.

But it also isn't black and white to state as you have in this thread that if your on a SS, the ONLY option is to run at all times.

Not sure how BrianP managed to pull off his exceptional feat of riding past three cruisers yesterday, without a single interaction. UNLESS, he was riding appropriately and not doing something that would draw unwanted attention to himself....

 

[ZX600]

internet forums are the best for exposing self entitled people because they think think that their poorly thought-out, twisted rants justifying their nonsense actually means anything. I can see someone pointing to this thread while they're pulled over, that is if they don't run, as support for why the world should follow their magical rules.

get caught speeding or whatever, fight the ticket and if you're found guilty, take your lumps. No body cares about your silly arguments about how cars and roads have advanced so far but limits are still the same. You're correct, but you can't justify your traffic violations entirely within the Court between your ears.

Traffic violations are when you behave in a way outside of the posted rules. Simple. Work to change the posted rules if you dislike being governed by them, or move.

I'd like to see running from the cops a carte blanche card for police to stop the car/bike however they wish with no recourse. Self entitled people praying on vulnerabilities of the police, and others, make this world a significantly worse place than it could be.

People need to grow up and take responsibility for their actions

Right back at you

 

[油井緋色]

No, they aren't black and white.

But it also isn't black and white to state as you have in this thread that if your on a SS, the ONLY option is to run at all times.

Not sure how BrianP managed to pull off his exceptional feat of riding past three cruisers yesterday, without a single interaction. UNLESS, he was riding appropriately and not doing something that would draw unwanted attention to himself....

I didn't say the only option is to run.

 

[griff2]

I didn't say the only option is to run.

Unless you're already a criminal in which case you are scum, it should not be considered an option at all.

If you choose to run, you become a criminal by your choice to commit criminal flight from police, in which case you become scum. Polite society for the most part don't much care if scum off themselves during a criminal act.

 

[油井緋色]

Unless you're already a criminal in which case you are scum, it should be considered an option at all. If you choose to run, you become a criminal by your choice to commit criminal flight from police, in which case you become scum. Polite society for the most part don't much care if scum off themselves during a criminal act.

Absolute views such as this are naive.

Lets say a girl was being raped in her apartment and the boy friend comes in during the raping. Due to the heat of the moment, he kills the attacker. The rapist's family is extremely wealthy and hires a very competent lawyer. Boy friend ends up in jail.

Not all criminals are scum.

With regards to running, scenarios like this are much more common:

3rd year student has spent years saving up for their SS. Takes SS out at night and rips it on the 400 series when there's no traffic. Cop lights up the student. Student is aware that with tuition fees and working part time, he cannot afford the $5,000 - $10,000 expense of dealing with HTA172; it'd probably bankrupt him, force him to sell the bike, and delay his graduation. So he runs.

I can make a scenario that tilts the morale compass to either side. The HTA172 was created to stop street racing...not bankrupt people with no intention of racing.

Also, I am not religious at all but "let he who has not sin cast the first stone"

 

[il3dsm]

Ok so let's look at the default setting here at GTAM to posts like this. Cops showed up at my door saying that my plate was recorded as being involved in X, Y, or Z...what should I do. GTAM reply SAY NOTHING, if you had your helmet on, they can't id who was riding the bike, your a free man/woman.. So explain to us how "getting the plate" is sufficent? If the officer can't identify the rider? Not sure about yours but my helmet isn't see through. So putting the copper at a desk because he was doing his/her job, would be not possible.

Might I suggest, that you gain some real world experience. I can tell you, not all pursuits are justified, nor have I said officers should pursue at each opportunity. That is part of the job to make split second decisions, but officers are still human and just like you and I at times they may make what in hindsight may appear to be have been the wrong decision. I can also tell you from personal experience that when involved in a high stress pursuit, (not all pursuits are the same), it can become quite possible for the officer to develop "tunnel vision" in that apprehending the offender becomes the only option. But those types of pursuits, (at least in my experience), are very very rare.

Weather you "think" the first response is to run is merely ancedotal at best. The VAST VAST majority of people when confronted with a set of lights stop. Their default setting is not to run, therefore, it is NOT a "programmed response" Fight or flight response in humans, is built in, to kick in, when presented to EXTREME potential danger. Seeing lights on a car roof hardly qualifies as EXTREME potential danger. If the fight or flight response was a progammed response then it wouldn't be "programmed in" to some but not others it would be "programmed in" to everyone. Therefore, logic dictates if only a small percentage react in this manner then it is something, within that particular person(ality), not an automatic triggered response mechanism.

Even if one were to concede the fight or flight was programmed in, then surely on a protracted pursuit the rider should be able to override this response with the stronger and certainly programmed in "survival mode". Then the rider "should" be able to make the reasoned argument that stopping is the best possible course. Many choose not to stop because then they don't wnat to face the consequences of their CHOICE.

To state that a person initial response is automatic and uncontrollable is ludicrous. We as humans are face daily with hundreds, if not thousands, of "initial reactions" yet we seem to be able to control our response to the "appropriate response". To say that, seeing an officers lights, somehow overrides what we instinctually do hundreds of times daily is not possible. But please feel free to post any studies that have been completed, that state your position is supported by facts, and not ancedotal.

You are right about the plate part, I don't know. Although I would imagine it would be hard to deny if the bike is warm and matches the description.

As for the second part, sorry but I don't have the time nor the crayons to explain how MILLIONS OF YEARS of evolution can override your judgement. Look, you've even said it yourself: Occasionally officers see catching the suspect as the ONLY choice. Why do you think that is? Do you think they woke up one morning and said "you know what? If today someone tries getting away from me I'll chase them down, no matter what" ? It's true, most people stop. I stop too. But the thought still flashes in my head.

I'm not trying to insult you, but there is an abundance of information on the internet on human behavior, brain and function of different brain regions as well as how they were shaped by evolution and what they are for. Please read up on it.
One thing I'll tell you for certain is that amygdala isn't good at determining what is a threat to survival and what isn't. It doesn't only kick in during EXTREME potential danger, as you put it. Just think of people getting stressed at an office job. ANY perceived threat, real or not will trigger it to some degree.

 

[gsxr guy]

Unless you're already a criminal in which case you are scum, it should not be considered an option at all.

If you choose to run, you become a criminal by your choice to commit criminal flight from police, in which case you become scum. Polite society for the most part don't much care if scum off themselves during a criminal act.

So someone that blows over by 0.01 is scum. I hope your child does something stupid and gets a criminal record.

 

[ddusseld]

Exactly which laws do you have to break to become criminal scum who's death is meaningless? Seriously, I'd like to know what the line is between scum and the rest of society. I specifically want to determine if I'm scum or just a self entitled rider with mad skillz......

Unless you're already a criminal in which case you are scum, it should not be considered an option at all.

If you choose to run, you become a criminal by your choice to commit criminal flight from police, in which case you become scum. Polite society for the most part don't much care if scum off themselves during a criminal act.

 

[Emefef]

You are right about the plate part, I don't know. Although I would imagine it would be hard to deny if the bike is warm and matches the description.

As for the second part, sorry but I don't have the time nor the crayons to explain how MILLIONS OF YEARS of evolution can override your judgement. Look, you've even said it yourself: Occasionally officers see catching the suspect as the ONLY choice. Why do you think that is? Do you think they woke up one morning and said "you know what? If today someone tries getting away from me I'll chase them down, no matter what" ? It's true, most people stop. I stop too. But the thought still flashes in my head.

I'm not trying to insult you, but there is an abundance of information on the internet on human behavior, brain and function of different brain regions as well as how they were shaped by evolution and what they are for. Please read up on it.
One thing I'll tell you for certain is that amygdala isn't good at determining what is a threat to survival and what isn't. It doesn't only kick in during EXTREME potential danger, as you put it. Just think of people getting stressed at an office job. ANY perceived threat, real or not will trigger it to some degree.

"I'm not trying to insult you....but I don't have the time nor the crayons." Nice.
I've recently been studying a lot about stress, reactions, and choices to help with my own issues. I found this topic very interesting, and I've spent much of the afternoon reading since you posted "amygdala".
There is a lot of evidence to support the fact that we can control our responses and make choices. There are studies that describe the "acute stress response" as ONE of the ways we can react. You've raised the "fight or flight response" and held fast that it's an absolute, and happens to everyone. Sure we're programmed that way, but being lit up by a cruiser doesn't trigger it in everyone. In this thread, we've all recognized and I think have agreed that most people will react by simply pulling over. That's because as a species, we've evolved. As a society, and individually, our experiences shape our reactions and choices. Each of us will feel a different stress level in a given situation, and that stress level will be based on our own experience and expectations.
Our reaction, however, is a choice. As you said "amygdala isn't good at determining what is a threat to survival and what isn't." Understood. It's also not good at determining the best option between fight or flight. The acute stress response simply prepares the body for fight or flight​, it does not determine the actual course of action. "Fight or flight" still involves a choice - otherwise, in this thread, we would only be referring to it as "flight", because that's the only course of action you've used it to support.

 

[crankcall]

.

Also, I am not religious at all but "let he who has not sin cast the first stone"

That's John 8:7 , I'm not religious either, but if your going to quote Jesus of all people get it right

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her"

 

[griff2]

3rd year student has spent years saving up for their SS. Takes SS out at night and rips it on the 400 series when there's no traffic. Cop lights up the student. Student is aware that with tuition fees and working part time, he cannot afford the $5,000 - $10,000 expense of dealing with HTA172; it'd probably bankrupt him, force him to sell the bike, and delay his graduation. So he runs.

He still CHOOSES to escalate from a traffic offence to a criminal offense by running and in doing so becomes criminal scum in the process. No sympathy for his dilemma and no pity for him if he is hurt or killed.

 

[PLau]

Unless you're already a criminal in which case you are scum, it should not be considered an option at all.

If you choose to run, you become a criminal by your choice to commit criminal flight from police, in which case you become scum. Polite society for the most part don't much care if scum off themselves during a criminal act.

Have you ever smoked/possessed pot in Ontario?

 

[griff2]

Have you ever smoked/possessed pot in Ontario?

In a word, no. That said, if I believed that smoking or possessing pot creates risk to others, I would say that doing so makes that person scum too. Ask me what I think about smoking pot and driving.

 

[PLau]

In a word, no. That said, if I believed that smoking or possessing pot creates risk to others, I would say that doing so makes that person scum too. Ask me what I think about smoking pot and driving.

Nobody said anything about smoking pot and driving. That's a completely different issue and would think I would be on the same page with you in that regard.

But the fact is that by saying that breaking the law (under the criminal code) labels the person scum, you're calling over 50% of the population in Ontario scum - which, chances are, you're own family and friends probably fall into that category.

Point is, by making such a broad statement like "If you break the law (under the criminal code - making you a criminal), you're scum" you already took away the fine line of "Sure, hes doing something illegal, but it's not hurting anyone else" and labelled them as scum regardless.

 

[Two50noob]

criminal scum

Griff is a guard from Elder Scrolls

 

[油井緋色]

That's John 8:7 , I'm not religious either, but if your going to quote Jesus of all people get it right

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her"

You know, Jesus probably didn't speak English so any translation that gets the meaning across works!

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Griff is a guard from Elder Scrolls

He used to be an adventurer, but took an arrow to the knee?

 

[knucklesound]

Who would have thought that this thread would have evolved into a 'free will vs determinism' and a 'biblical translation controversy' discussion?!?!
Hoping someone brings up wave particle duality next!
Ezekiel 24:12, "She hath wearied herself with lies, and her great scum went not forth out of her: her scum shall be in the fire."

\m/ \m/

 

[jc100]

You are right about the plate part, I don't know. Although I would imagine it would be hard to deny if the bike is warm and matches the description.

As for the second part, sorry but I don't have the time nor the crayons to explain how MILLIONS OF YEARS of evolution can override your judgement. Look, you've even said it yourself: Occasionally officers see catching the suspect as the ONLY choice. Why do you think that is? Do you think they woke up one morning and said "you know what? If today someone tries getting away from me I'll chase them down, no matter what" ? It's true, most people stop. I stop too. But the thought still flashes in my head.

I'm not trying to insult you, but there is an abundance of information on the internet on human behavior, brain and function of different brain regions as well as how they were shaped by evolution and what they are for. Please read up on it.
One thing I'll tell you for certain is that amygdala isn't good at determining what is a threat to survival and what isn't. It doesn't only kick in during EXTREME potential danger, as you put it. Just think of people getting stressed at an office job. ANY perceived threat, real or not will trigger it to some degree.

You are wrong. Our animal brains also tell us not to be monogamous and to fertilize as many eggs as possible but plenty of people manage it through nurture vs nature. We manage to overcome quite a few of our base instincts this way. It all depends on how you've been brought up. That's the key.

 

[griff2]

Nobody said anything about smoking pot and driving. That's a completely different issue and would think I would be on the same page with you in that regard.

But the fact is that by saying that breaking the law (under the criminal code) labels the person scum, you're calling over 50% of the population in Ontario scum - which, chances are, you're own family and friends probably fall into that category.

Point is, by making such a broad statement like "If you break the law (under the criminal code - making you a criminal), you're scum" you already took away the fine line of "Sure, hes doing something illegal, but it's not hurting anyone else" and labelled them as scum regardless.

I was more specific than simply saying "if you break the law you are scum". I said "If you choose to run, you become a criminal by your choice to commit criminal flight from police, in which case you become scum."

Not just any criminal act, but in this case an act that needlessly puts others on the road at risk including the cop who is trying to pull you over.

Society has certain values. Most of respectable society views those whose choices harm or put others at risk of harm as being irresponsible low-lifes at best. Such people should be and are viewed with contempt. Those who would cheer them on, encourage others to do the same, or makes excuses as to why what they're doing is somehow justified should also be viewed with contempt.

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