Private sale and test rides

[PrivatePilot]

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It's a unique bike (2014 Honda CTX1300)

That's a pretty cool bike. Never knew it existed - it came out during the era where I'd taken a break from riding. If only it had a beer box for touring I'd might actually be interested. PM me more details regardless if you could please?

As a buyer, I’ve never asked for a test ride.

When I bought my wife's Vstar I did the opposite - agreement hinged on a test ride at pickup before the ownership was signed.

Glad I did as the test ride showed the clutch was completely out of the bike - it would slip in 1st gear and simply wouldn't even accelerate in anything above 3rd.

I agreed to still close the deal when he seller fixed the clutch, which he did, and then we closed the deal after another test ride.

So just a caveat, unless things have changed, the insurance company won't issue you a policy on a vehicle that you don't own

I've never had a problem getting insurance on anything, anytime, with just the VIN. Every used vehicle we've ever bought privately I got insurance at least 24 hours before going to pickup the vehicle, and then drove it home.

 

[Lightcycle]

I've never had a problem getting insurance on anything, anytime, with just the VIN. Every used vehicle we've ever bought privately I got insurance at least 24 hours before going to pickup the vehicle, and then drove it home.

They key is address and ownership. If you buy a policy with a different address from your home address and the owner is not listed as living under your roof, then the insurance company won't issue you a policy. Too much potential for fraud. You already put the insurance under your own name and address. I've done exactly the same thing and that was what I was recommending to @ifiddles.

 

[Mad Mike]

I was a buyer once and I did exactly this. Called the insurance company and got insurance beforehand. Went to the MTO and got a temporary license plate. Went to the bank and withdrew $$$ in cash. My buddy drove me all the way to London, I showed the insurance slip to the seller (who is actually a GTAM member), test-rode the bike briefly and then handed the cash over and rode it home, while my buddy drove back behind me. Everybody was happy, especially my buddy who got gas money and a steak dinner out of it.

If the bike doesn't pass the test-ride, you're only out the temporary license plate and the one day of insurance after you call to cancel it. Plus your time and any gas money, of course. But the seller was well-known on GTAM and his pictures and description were meticulous. There was actually a race to buy his bike, and my buddy (and also another GTAM member) lost out on the bike by 2 hours, after he showed up to the seller's place with a trailer, ready to take the bike home.

A test ride should be the final step of a sale, not the initial one. If I'm selling a bike, this is what I'd expect from a buyer, so I did exactly this as a buyer, myself.

Obviously, these rules can be bent, due to circumstances. My co-worker just bought Neda's old F650GS, which has been ridden around the world a few times, already has its share of dings and the asking price was not very high at all. I let him test-ride the bike, no problem. I knew he was a good rider, and knew if he pranged the bike he'd be good for the repair money.

All good except the temp plate. To get one, the bike must have a current fit registration in the name of the currently registered owner. For that to be the new owner, the ownership needs to be transferred first.

Some insurers automatically cover a new purchase for 3 days (mine did) from the signing over of ownership -- no notification required -- this allows you to buy and drive. Check with your insurer to see if this applies to you.

As a seller, if they want a test ride, I'm OK but only after they agree to a deal and hand over the cash. I check their licence then toss them the keys. If they change their mind after the ride, no problem, see ya (I never ever negotiate after test ride)

If its a deal, I sign and date the ownership and UVIP then take a copy if each. I go with them to the local Service Ontario and transfer ownership and get a temporary plate right then. If thats not possible, i'll let them ride off using my plate as long as they leave me the plate part of the ownership remaining plate value and $27 plate fee. If they return the plate, I'll return the money.

 

[Lightcycle]

All good except the temp plate. To get one, the bike must have a current fit registration in the name of the currently registered owner. For that to be the new owner, the ownership needs to be transferred first.

Not true. From the MTO website: Temporary licence plate sticker

To get a temporary licence plate sticker visit ServiceOntario and bring:
[*]the vehicle permit indicating that the vehicle’s status is "FIT" or “TMP”
[*]if the vehicle is not yet registered in your name, the back of the permit must be completed and signed by the current registered owner

One of the main reasons to issue a temporary plate (or sticker these days) is to allow the vehicle to be moved for certification/relocation before the ownership has been transferred.

 

[Lightcycle]

i'll let them ride off using my plate as long as they leave me the plate part of the ownership remaining plate value and $27 plate fee. If they return the plate, I'll return the money.

I wouldn't let anyone ride off with a plate that's registered to my name. That's how the 407ETR bills you, and any photo radar tickets get sent to the address registered to the plate. Also, if any crime gets committed with your plate, the police show up to the address registered to that plate, so you may get a knock on your door.

If you aren't using your plate anymore, the most prudent thing to do is to disassociate your name and address from the plate by returning it back to the MTO.

Every once in a while, I'd ask the MTO to run a search on all plates and vehicles registered to my name, just to make sure there are no surprises, like curbsiders who buy my vehicles but fail to transfer the ownership.

 

[nobbie48]

I got insurance on a bike I bought out of the USA a dozen years ago. I didn't tell the agent much more than I needed insurance on a bike VIN XXXXXXX. That may have changed.

My greatest fear is the liability in case of a crash. The worst case is when a vehicle is used in the commission of a crime. The victims of the Yonge Street massacre got nothing from the insurer. If things line up wrong everything you own is on the line.

There are numerous reasons for an insurer to deny coverage, no license or suspended etc

I think private pilot's system is as close as one is going to get to giving a risk free test ride. I would want to confirm that the signed bill of sale was considered by the courts as a legal change of ownership.

Nothing beats not having your name even mentioned

My second greatest fear is the insurance rate increase if my vehicle is involved in an at-fault. Rates can easily double for many years. Insurance law can be very tricky as the policy is clear on what is covered under what situations. Sell a $5K bike and pay $6000 more in insurance over the next few years.

Loss of the value of the bike is important but not life changing.

Payment: Cash is good but it can be counterfeit or you could get mugged afterwards. Cheques bounce and certified can be faked.Third party cheques are not to be trusted. Bank transfers can work as long as the guy isn't on an oil rig.

 

[Lightcycle]

Payment: Cash is good but it can be counterfeit or you could get mugged afterwards. Cheques bounce and certified can be faked.Third party cheques are not to be trusted. Bank transfers can work as long as the guy isn't on an oil rig.

That's the sticky part. Pretty much every single method of payment has some form of fraud or reversal associated with it.

For me, some means of Electronic Funds Transfer seems to be the safest, even though I've heard of Interac e-Transfers being reversed. I've even heard of wire transfers between different banks being reversed.

Whadayagonnado? Sometimes you gotta just trust the other party a little bit. And make sure that Spidey sense is en pointe.

 

[Mad Mike]

Not true. From the MTO website: Temporary licence plate sticker



One of the main reasons to issue a temporary plate (or sticker these days) is to allow the vehicle to be moved for certification/relocation before the ownership has been transferred.

You need the current FIT vehicle registration AND the back of the ownership signed. That allows the seller, agent for the buyer or buyer to pickup a temp plate that could be used by the the seller.

Unless the seller and buyer have friends & family trust -- there's no way a seller is giving you a signed ownership in advance of you buying the vehicle. There's no possible way to do this in anticipation of a buy, it can only happen after the seller give up and signs over the ownership.

I wish it were the other way, I can't count the round trips I've made over the years to get temp plates on cars and bikes.

Tip: If you desire a temp plate, you MUST do it at the time you transfer the vehicle into your name unless the vehicle came with a current Safety. If you transfer first, the MTO gives you an UNFIT title -- there's no way to get a TEMP sticker for that, and no process to reverse the ownership branding.

 

[Mad Mike]

...

One of the main reasons to issue a temporary plate (or sticker these days) is to allow the vehicle to be moved for certification/relocation before the ownership has been transferred.

There are no legal restrictions on where you can drive with a TEMP sticker.

It's common for owners that have a lapsed annual stickers to get a TEMP sticker to put the vehicle on the road temporarily (and legally).

It's also common for new buyers to get a TEMP tag right before transferring ownership into their name. This allows the new owner to temporarily drive the vehicle for repairs, certification, relocation (or for any reason they see fit).

 

[Hack]

You gotta follow your gut...
If some 40 plus year old dude shows up to look at a bike I'm selling... His story kinda checks out and he seems sincere and genuinely interested.... I'll risk letting him do a test run...
'Some teenager or 20-something wearing sweats and a backwards flatty...

'Get the **** outta my driveway...

I'm judgy like that.

 

[Evoex]

Interesting thread.

I've never sold a bike privately yet, but i've bought a handful between myself and for friends. I tend to gauge the 'risk' in the deal based on how the bike is stored and the environment it's located in.

If i walk into a spic and span garage and lots of tools that are hanging where they should be or at least clean, then i'd probably be less concerned with a test ride.

 

[nobbie48]

That's the sticky part. Pretty much every single method of payment has some form of fraud or reversal associated with it.

For me, some means of Electronic Funds Transfer seems to be the safest, even though I've heard of Interac e-Transfers being reversed. I've even heard of wire transfers between different banks being reversed.

Whadayagonnado? Sometimes you gotta just trust the other party a little bit. And make sure that Spidey sense is en pointe.

Agree on a bank and the buyer withdraws cash and in front of the teller slides it to the seller. The seller slides it back to the teller and asks for a money order or draft. There is no electronic link to reverse and the seller doesn't have to worry about getting mugged on the way home or counterfeit money.

 

[Lightcycle]

I've never sold a bike privately yet, but i've bought a handful between myself and for friends. I tend to gauge the 'risk' in the deal based on how the bike is stored and the environment it's located in.

If i walk into a spic and span garage and lots of tools that are hanging where they should be or at least clean, then i'd probably be less concerned with a test ride.

Also, given how open and candid everyone is on the Internet, forums and social media, sometimes it's very easy to track down a bike or its owner's history with just a rudimentary Google search. It's amazing how often a Kijiji's name and avatar matches right up to an Internet forum's avatar.

"Previous owner dropped it from a standstill?", well, Adrian1976, that's not what your post on Gixxer.com says from last year's crash at the Dragon. And pictures of the repairs you did match right up to your Kijiji ad!

There's this limited edition, albeit high-mileage Duc that pops up for sale every once in a while in Calgary, but given that it's labelled "26/450", it's super-easy to find out the history of all the previous owners (5 of them) on the Ducati forum registries, where it originally came from (Vancouver Island) as well as all the mods, mileage, usage, etc. Also known is the last sale price on the Internet classifieds, so it's apparent that the seller is just a curbsider that never put any mileage since the last sale, so he probably didn't even transfer the ownership, let alone insure it for the road. And he's asking $5K more than the last known sale price...

Next!

 

[PrivatePilot]

I’ll add, I do allow test rides but I’m selective.

I guess I'd have to say the same. I have a very small circle of riding friends who I'd trust on any of my bikes as I've ridden enough with them to know they're accomplished riders. Zero risk still? Nope. But way less than some stranger from the internet.

But I guess in retrospect as well there would be a few GTAM members who I'd allow such for as well if such a situation ever arose, but you do get a pretty good feel for long term members here over the years. The vibe I'd get from someone meeting them in person for that first time would weigh heavily in that decision as well.

But stranger from Kijiji? Yeah, almost certainly nope.

I think private pilot's system is as close as one is going to get to giving a risk free test ride. I would want to confirm that the signed bill of sale was considered by the courts as a legal change of ownership.

Nothing beats not having your name even mentioned

I wouldn't doubt some slimeball lawyer may still try to get you involved in some fashion or another in the case of "guy rode off and ran into a bus full of nuns and children" situation, but the odds would be very slim of that either happening to begin with, nor it sticking in the end anyways.

Pretty much every single method of payment has some form of fraud or reversal associated with it.

Interac Etransfer has zero chance of reversal. I've confirmed it with my bank several times now (long stories), and I've also seen more than a few stories of "person sent money to the wrong email address never to be seen again" stories regarding Interac Etransfer, one of which happened just recently and was in the news again.

Actually just dug up the story: Cautionary tale: Honest e-transfer error costs local couple $3k

Bank isn't going to just reverse things at all. Legal action might not even result in getting the money back. More than a few stories like this I've seen, so I'm pretty comfortable with Etransfer now as being legitimately "irreversible".

 

[Lightcycle]

Interac Etransfer has zero chance of reversal. I've confirmed it with my bank several times now (long stories), and I've also seen more than a few stories of "person sent money to the wrong email address never to be seen again" stories regarding Interac Etransfer, one of which happened just recently and was in the news again.

Yeah, the only issue I have with e-Transfers are the low daily limits. A $5K bike will take at least two different transfers over two different days, depending on your bank. Or two different FIs, as was the case on my last bike transaction.

Can't imagine trying to buy a $20K bike using e-Transfer...

 

[PrivatePilot]

Can't imagine trying to buy a $20K bike using e-Transfer...

Fair. In the case of large $ transactions I've always arranged to go to the buyers bank and do the transaction in person there electronically.

Bought our newest Volt this way.

 

[Hardwrkr13]

Yeah, the only issue I have with e-Transfers are the low daily limits. A $5K bike will take at least two different transfers over two different days, depending on your bank. Or two different FIs, as was the case on my last bike transaction.

Can't imagine trying to buy a $20K bike using e-Transfer...

I was able to increase my etransfer daily limit to $10,000 easy enough. Double check with your bank.

 

[Mad Mike]

I guess I'd have to say the same. I have a very small circle of riding friends who I'd trust on any of my bikes as I've ridden enough with them to know they're accomplished riders. Zero risk still? Nope. But way less than some stranger from the internet.
But I guess in retrospect as well there would be a few GTAM members who I'd allow such for as well if such a situation ever arose, but you do get a pretty good feel for long term members here over the years. The vibe I'd get from someone meeting them in person for that first time would weigh heavily in that decision as well.

But stranger from Kijiji? Yeah, almost certainly nope.


I wouldn't doubt some slimeball lawyer may still try to get you involved in some fashion or another in the case of "guy rode off and ran into a bus full of nuns and children" situation, but the odds would be very slim of that either happening to begin with, nor it sticking in the end anyways.


Interac Etransfer has zero chance of reversal. I've confirmed it with my bank several times now (long stories), and I've also seen more than a few stories of "person sent money to the wrong email address never to be seen again" stories regarding Interac Etransfer, one of which happened just recently and was in the news again.

Actually just dug up the story: Cautionary tale: Honest e-transfer error costs local couple $3k

Bank isn't going to just reverse things at all. Legal action might not even result in getting the money back. More than a few stories like this I've seen, so I'm pretty comfortable with Etransfer now as being legitimately "irreversible".

Interac transfers can be reversed up until the recipient accepts the transaction. That could be instantly with auto deposit or if the password is guessable.

 

[Mad Mike]

I was able to increase my etransfer daily limit to $10,000 easy enough. Double check with your bank.

$10k a day is Interac limit (there are also 7 and 30 day rolling limits that accompany the daily limit.

Any bank can raise your limit to $10k, not everyone qualifies for the limit increase, not all banks use the same qualifying criteria, no bank discloses their qualifying criteria.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Interac transfers can be reversed up until the recipient accepts the transaction. That could be instantly with auto deposit or if the password is guessable.

All the more reason to have autodeposit turned on.

When someone sends me an Etransfer, as soon as I get the email it's been received, it's in my account.

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