Supersquid
Well-known member
2004 zx10r
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Litre bikes that redefined the class
- Thread starter kwtoxman
- Start date
kwtoxman
Well-known member
Interesting discussions. More thoughts...
Yes, the 1992 fireblade still looks current to the untrained eye and is a fantastic design that still hasn't aged.
Lots of back and forth on the ZX10R. I wavered on the ZX10R but didn't put it in for reasons as others have mentioned. While revolutionary for Kawi, it was evolutionary for the class (a very nice evolutionary step I'd add... and a beautiful bike). Including the ZX10R on the list would open the gates to adding other bikes as we've seen in the comments. Then suddenly the list becomes bloated with a "revolutionary" bike supposedly coming out every couple years.
Interesting that a few people mentioned the ZX11. No ZX11 for me on the list. It never set the litre sportbike market on fire and never really compared well in the class as I've defined it here (as a race-driven litre-bike). As mentioned, it is essentially an example of a hyperbike before the hyperbike class actually existed. Quick, fast fast fast, comfy, more of a street sportbike than a race-inspired sportbike. Still a nice bike. Almost bought one back in the day. As mentioned, I would say the ZX11 was one of the first examples of a hyperbike, creating that eventual niche. And on a hyperbike list it should definitely be there.
I didn't add any bikes just because they introduced a piece of updated technology, such as slipper clutch, radial brake, upgraded suspension design. All of this is evolutionary stuff. You'd also bloat the list big time adding a bike for every update, from twinspar frame, to aluminum, to inverted forks, to ride height adjustable shocks, to radial brakes, to slipper clutches, etc, etc, etc. Besides, I know people who can lap the shannonville track faster on an old conventional fork axial brake F4i/R6/GSXR600/SV650 than most other people on the latest superbike. It's still more about rider than machine, which is why so many of us love the sport.
As for bikes older than on my list, I only generated the list beginning at 1986 because I have little familiarity with older bikes. By all means those who know the older stuff go for it and discuss. I remember an old magazine did a retrospective on the 1984 Kawasaki ZX900 calling it a major upgrade. It was the first 16 valve liquid cooled I4 motorcycle and the first bike to exceed 150 mph. There are also litrebikes that first introduced aluminum frames, twinspar frames, etc.
The 916 and its early iterations are great bikes but I didn't include them because technically they weren't part of the litre sportbike class. The 916 was conceived for and raced the 750 (I4) class. It was a strong race winning bike in the AMA and WSB (750) superbike class, but it doesn't compare as well against I4 litrebikes of the day.
My list is made up of bikes that brought the open class sport bikes back to their spiritual core. Especially in the 80's and 90's, litrebikes were all over the map and through a couple of design cycles kept on putting a lot of weight on (think 70 pounds for example). I haven't seen such weight gain over a design cycle that bad in the last 10 years, but I hope new bikes goes back to the formula of extreme weight loss. Considering the Ducati Superleggera is around 340 lbs, I believe that current litre bikes could again stand to go on a diet and at least lose some weight.
This small list has generated some good discussion. I've seen lots of good info here too Those are my thoughts. No right or wrong, just lots of interesting stuff to talk about.
Cheers.
Yes, the 1992 fireblade still looks current to the untrained eye and is a fantastic design that still hasn't aged.
Lots of back and forth on the ZX10R. I wavered on the ZX10R but didn't put it in for reasons as others have mentioned. While revolutionary for Kawi, it was evolutionary for the class (a very nice evolutionary step I'd add... and a beautiful bike). Including the ZX10R on the list would open the gates to adding other bikes as we've seen in the comments. Then suddenly the list becomes bloated with a "revolutionary" bike supposedly coming out every couple years.
Interesting that a few people mentioned the ZX11. No ZX11 for me on the list. It never set the litre sportbike market on fire and never really compared well in the class as I've defined it here (as a race-driven litre-bike). As mentioned, it is essentially an example of a hyperbike before the hyperbike class actually existed. Quick, fast fast fast, comfy, more of a street sportbike than a race-inspired sportbike. Still a nice bike. Almost bought one back in the day. As mentioned, I would say the ZX11 was one of the first examples of a hyperbike, creating that eventual niche. And on a hyperbike list it should definitely be there.
I didn't add any bikes just because they introduced a piece of updated technology, such as slipper clutch, radial brake, upgraded suspension design. All of this is evolutionary stuff. You'd also bloat the list big time adding a bike for every update, from twinspar frame, to aluminum, to inverted forks, to ride height adjustable shocks, to radial brakes, to slipper clutches, etc, etc, etc. Besides, I know people who can lap the shannonville track faster on an old conventional fork axial brake F4i/R6/GSXR600/SV650 than most other people on the latest superbike. It's still more about rider than machine, which is why so many of us love the sport.
As for bikes older than on my list, I only generated the list beginning at 1986 because I have little familiarity with older bikes. By all means those who know the older stuff go for it and discuss. I remember an old magazine did a retrospective on the 1984 Kawasaki ZX900 calling it a major upgrade. It was the first 16 valve liquid cooled I4 motorcycle and the first bike to exceed 150 mph. There are also litrebikes that first introduced aluminum frames, twinspar frames, etc.
The 916 and its early iterations are great bikes but I didn't include them because technically they weren't part of the litre sportbike class. The 916 was conceived for and raced the 750 (I4) class. It was a strong race winning bike in the AMA and WSB (750) superbike class, but it doesn't compare as well against I4 litrebikes of the day.
My list is made up of bikes that brought the open class sport bikes back to their spiritual core. Especially in the 80's and 90's, litrebikes were all over the map and through a couple of design cycles kept on putting a lot of weight on (think 70 pounds for example). I haven't seen such weight gain over a design cycle that bad in the last 10 years, but I hope new bikes goes back to the formula of extreme weight loss. Considering the Ducati Superleggera is around 340 lbs, I believe that current litre bikes could again stand to go on a diet and at least lose some weight.
This small list has generated some good discussion. I've seen lots of good info here too Those are my thoughts. No right or wrong, just lots of interesting stuff to talk about.
Cheers.
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I am confused with this statement, the 916 won the wsbk championship (top class at the time) is 94, 95, 96 and 98 against the litre bikes
1994
Pos Manufacturer Pts
1 Italy Ducati 403
2 Japan Kawasaki 348
3 Japan Honda 313
4 Japan Yamaha 145
5 Japan Suzuki 12
1995
Pos Manufacturer Pts
1 Italy Ducati 580
2 Japan Honda 361
3 Japan Kawasaki 345
4 Japan Yamaha 217
5 Japan Suzuki 7
1996
Pos Manufacturer Pts
1 Italy Ducati 521
2 Japan Honda 430
3 Japan Kawasaki 308
4 Japan Yamaha 300
5 Japan Suzuki 156
1998
Pos Manufacturer Pts
1 Italy Ducati 487.5
2 Japan Honda 416.5
3 Japan Yamaha 307
4 Japan Suzuki 252
5 Japan Kawasaki 251
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Shaman
Well-known member
I disagree on several counts. It's probably the fastest in a straight line by a small margin, and that's about it. I can think of four bikes that I'd rather have. I bought one of them. But let's not get into that...
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kwtoxman
Well-known member
Bingo as per DU. I mentioned this in my earlier post, but let's point it out again. The 916 and all ducati variants up to 2003 raced against 750's I4's, as the superbike class in WSB and AMA limited I4 capacities to 750 cc . The 916 does not compare well to the litre sportbike class in this thread (as I did not limit engine size by engine configuration). The 916 should be compared to 750's of the day, where it is meant to and is a standout for sure.
That is also why you see 1200 cc Duc's racing against 1000 cc I4's now a days, for example. The displacement formula to engine configuration varied, and always has to this day. Back in the day the superbike class was I4 750cc max with related engine configuration differences. Today is I4 1000cc max with related engine configuration differences.
As mentioned earlier, all of these racing nuances and changes over time have had a large effect on the litre bike class in general as well as the development of bikes in the class. Interesting stuff.
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Because your a pro rider and gotta have the best bike!
The Honda GL series really did redefine the class, just like the Honda of the early 60's, it made touring cool and available for people that didn't want to dress like a pirate or wear a safety vest and neon helmet. Amazing how many older people started their riding career on a GL and have logged thousands of miles. Many incarnations and model changes but Honda really did establish a class and redefine touring bikes at the same time.
Shaman
Well-known member
i don't know that the F4 has really defined or redefined the class, though. It perhaps redefined what the top of the class might look like... but then again the F4 has never really been at the top of the class (perhaps very briefly). So I'd vote against, personally.
That said, the F3 and F3 800 have come giant leaps forward this year and perhaps the F4RR will share at least some of that tech before its inevitable refresh, which can't come too soon.
That said, the F3 and F3 800 have come giant leaps forward this year and perhaps the F4RR will share at least some of that tech before its inevitable refresh, which can't come too soon.
muay_thai_dan
Well-known member
agreed!
theassassin
Well-known member
Starting in liquid bikes to be taken seriously:
83 750 interceptor revolutionary design and power delivery (later zx900 was not a much better bike but was liquid i4, I don't think the 1000ninja was ever tops in anything except for top speed and blowing cranks when wheelied). Though the kawis were new and had their purpose they didnt out do the v4 for being a benchmark. The interceptor might have been a benchmark for design it was also legendary for a dismal failing in valve train and cam drive design something left over from CB 750 perhaps?
86 gsxr1100 - aluminum frame advanced design and concepts inihilated competition for years. This bike responded extremely well to modification which cannot be said for others in this era.
FZR 1000 for bringing the recipe for the future, too bad it didn't have a GSXR engine. CBR 900 was basically an FZR done right but with slightly "off" carburetion so kind of a major refinement of the FZR ideas, too bad it wasn't a 1000.
96 GSXR 750 seems like the CBR 900 in its best form more or less, not entirely new ideas but man did that thing work!
The 98 R1 definitely was a step beyond anything yet but not a "new" idea except for transmission (made of butter) design. I remember 2000 GSXR 750s running away from mine!
So I have to say the 2000 GSXR s must be the next benchmark for producing the first engine/fuel management that actually worked in an effective package.
Most bikes since then have been a refinement in one way or another since the except for the kawi zx10 r, nice bike but could have been more refined and effective as a package.
now for benchmark failures:
BMW S 1000 rr for reasons that any fans of this bike would not like to hear. I see this bike as a dismal failure for what it could have been and the legacy it has created in the perception that the world is looking for overgrown 600s that shreik to the moon but are absent of torque. It has sweet styling and size but this motor is not what you'd think it'd be. Maybe in a perfect world there'd be a street version with more stroke and less bore and rpm.
Anything made by Ducati intended for ss or Super bike racing. Their influence with Dorna ruined Super bike racing in the 1990's just so an archaic design could survive, might as well have just used nascar rules.....they were allowed to be lighter and have bigger engines, haga was still sticking his r7 into that party but Japan mostly decided to move to other classes making wsb the world Ducati cup. It's best to use your 1990's to 2008 duc for posing down at Starbucks rather than try to run it hard and keep it in one piece with anything less than a moto gp team, deep pockets and an inside line to Bologna for your parts. Ducati has always seemed to me to be an Italian form of a HarleyDavidson which also may not start well when the engine is hot at a fuel stop.
though my 07 GSXR is not the best bike in the world, it'll run away from an 06 like it's tied to a rock. Some new models may be better than my old war Wagon but I don't think they're worth the extra 10 g's admission price. Regardless of my opinion of the last 30 years of bikes/designs/refinements, I think that a number of models need some substantial improvements for people to ante up for a new bike. The economy has been flat so it won't float updating bike designs.
I think the next leap will be in production processes making more components lighter.
btw my statements above are MY opinion and I am entitled to them......In my world.
83 750 interceptor revolutionary design and power delivery (later zx900 was not a much better bike but was liquid i4, I don't think the 1000ninja was ever tops in anything except for top speed and blowing cranks when wheelied). Though the kawis were new and had their purpose they didnt out do the v4 for being a benchmark. The interceptor might have been a benchmark for design it was also legendary for a dismal failing in valve train and cam drive design something left over from CB 750 perhaps?
86 gsxr1100 - aluminum frame advanced design and concepts inihilated competition for years. This bike responded extremely well to modification which cannot be said for others in this era.
FZR 1000 for bringing the recipe for the future, too bad it didn't have a GSXR engine. CBR 900 was basically an FZR done right but with slightly "off" carburetion so kind of a major refinement of the FZR ideas, too bad it wasn't a 1000.
96 GSXR 750 seems like the CBR 900 in its best form more or less, not entirely new ideas but man did that thing work!
The 98 R1 definitely was a step beyond anything yet but not a "new" idea except for transmission (made of butter) design. I remember 2000 GSXR 750s running away from mine!
So I have to say the 2000 GSXR s must be the next benchmark for producing the first engine/fuel management that actually worked in an effective package.
Most bikes since then have been a refinement in one way or another since the except for the kawi zx10 r, nice bike but could have been more refined and effective as a package.
now for benchmark failures:
BMW S 1000 rr for reasons that any fans of this bike would not like to hear. I see this bike as a dismal failure for what it could have been and the legacy it has created in the perception that the world is looking for overgrown 600s that shreik to the moon but are absent of torque. It has sweet styling and size but this motor is not what you'd think it'd be. Maybe in a perfect world there'd be a street version with more stroke and less bore and rpm.
Anything made by Ducati intended for ss or Super bike racing. Their influence with Dorna ruined Super bike racing in the 1990's just so an archaic design could survive, might as well have just used nascar rules.....they were allowed to be lighter and have bigger engines, haga was still sticking his r7 into that party but Japan mostly decided to move to other classes making wsb the world Ducati cup. It's best to use your 1990's to 2008 duc for posing down at Starbucks rather than try to run it hard and keep it in one piece with anything less than a moto gp team, deep pockets and an inside line to Bologna for your parts. Ducati has always seemed to me to be an Italian form of a HarleyDavidson which also may not start well when the engine is hot at a fuel stop.
though my 07 GSXR is not the best bike in the world, it'll run away from an 06 like it's tied to a rock. Some new models may be better than my old war Wagon but I don't think they're worth the extra 10 g's admission price. Regardless of my opinion of the last 30 years of bikes/designs/refinements, I think that a number of models need some substantial improvements for people to ante up for a new bike. The economy has been flat so it won't float updating bike designs.
I think the next leap will be in production processes making more components lighter.
btw my statements above are MY opinion and I am entitled to them......In my world.
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theassassin
Well-known member
I tried to start my rant by quoting you and adding "+ 1.....X 1000000)
kwtoxman
Well-known member
It's been three years since this thread was posted. I'm not aware of any new potential contenders from the added years since. Just baby steps in the class, and for many years now. A few new liter bikes look promising but they need to get out to the masses. I do like where my list sits and appreciate everyone's opinions and feedback. Something to do this winter and before riding season starts.
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