Harley-Davidson Profit Falls As Slide in Motorcycle Sales Continues

[nakkers]

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thread is about declining HD sales
several of us were discussing what we think they need to do
to appeal to a new demographic as theirs is dying off

then the pirate crowd rides in, unable to understand what an abstract discussion is
and turns it into a bash thread

another one for the waste bin

The funny thing is, the criticism about what HD should do is coming from riders that flat out say they will never own one.

Quarterly reports come out, some good, some bad, the peanut gallery chimes in.

Thrash thread ensues. Lol.


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[ddusseld]

If constructive criticism worked with the motorcycle riding crowd, they would be wearing full leathers, back protector, full face helmet, armored gloves and armored boots every time they rode regardless of kind of bike and type of ride. But apparently road rash is the price of freedom..

If constructive criticism worked with the harley crowd, they'd be wearing full face helmets by now, but apparently a face full of dirt tastes like freedom and made in murica.

Atleast harley seems to be listening, they released the new fat bob, it looks sick, and is More performance oriented, of course by all accounts the harley pirates hate it(too jappy looking)

 

[Face]

The funny thing is, the criticism about what HD should do is coming from riders that flat out say they will never own one.

Quarterly reports come out, some good, some bad, the peanut gallery chimes in.

Thrash thread ensues. Lol.


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The thread is about slowing Harley sales. If you want to expand your sales, you don't preach to the choir, especially if the choir is aging, dying off or otherwise leaving the church. So Harley needs to expand their market. The problem is that they've defined their market so specifically that whenever they try to broaden it, the efforts are usually half-arsed, and don't appeal to anyone. It also upsets the core market. When you brand yourself so specifically, then people are either gonna love it or hate it. They created this situation, and now they have to live or die with it. And those who think Harley is to big or strong to die probably also thought the same thing about Kodak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodak

 

[bigpoppa]

The thread is about slowing Harley sales. If you want to expand your sales, you don't preach to the choir, especially if the choir is aging, dying off or otherwise leaving the church. So Harley needs to expand their market. The problem is that they've defined their market so specifically that whenever they try to broaden it, the efforts are usually half-arsed, and don't appeal to anyone. It also upsets the core market. When you brand yourself so specifically, then people are either gonna love it or hate it. They created this situation, and now they have to live or die with it. And those who think Harley is to big or strong to die probably also thought the same thing about Kodak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodak

Preach( see what i did there?)

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[sburns]

And those who think Harley is to big or strong to die probably also thought the same thing about Kodak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodak

I do not think Kodak is a comparable example. They used to be a supplier at an old workplace. Terrible to deal with, but had some great products, but the company was a old boys club sitting up in an ivory tower. The industry shifted completely and Kodak did nothing to adapt to it.

Is there a huge shift going on in the motorcycle world? Are cruisers of no interest to buyers? Is everyone a hipster who only wants a "cafe" racer. Are electric bikes coming down the pipe someplace to upset the market? I am not aware of it. HD has, as others pointed out, offers a range of products. Maybe as well the resurgence of Indian is taking a bite from HD. It's a cruiser without the nuances of a HD with some modern car like tech, and somewhat equal heritage to back it up, with classic styling.

 

[LePhillou]

I do not think Kodak is a comparable example. They used to be a supplier at an old workplace. Terrible to deal with, but had some great products, but the company was a old boys club sitting up in an ivory tower. The industry shifted completely and Kodak did nothing to adapt to it.

Is there a huge shift going on in the motorcycle world? Are cruisers of no interest to buyers? Is everyone a hipster who only wants a "cafe" racer. Are electric bikes coming down the pipe someplace to upset the market? I am not aware of it. HD has, as others pointed out, offers a range of products. Maybe as well the resurgence of Indian is taking a bite from HD. It's a cruiser without the nuances of a HD with some modern car like tech, and somewhat equal heritage to back it up, with classic styling.

The problem is, in this day and age, you don't see in advance what's gonna come and disrupt everything.

You can't invest all your eggs in one basket, and that saying is always going to stand true. Look at apple, a computer company that branched out into smartphones. Look at google, a web search company, that branched out into... everything.
Look at all these retailers, failing to adapt, closing down one by one as Amazon grabs a huge chunk of market (like Sears for crying out loud, they had all the infrastructure, but didn't believe in reinforcing their internet presence and decided to keep catering to the same crowd).

Blackberry (RIM) and Nokia, GIANTS, that crumbled because they didn't adapt enough even though they had features they thought all people wanted/needed.

Sometimes the shifts are incremental (say blockbuster from vhs to dvd) and you see it coming. Or sometimes they swoop in and blindside you (ie. streaming services destroying blockbuster and the like).
With all those regulations swooping in for emissions and electric vehicles and what not, they'll have to start adapting if they want to stay relevant as those laws tend to nudge the market towards a certain direction.
HD is quite an icon, it's great that they employ local people and what not and the heritage is pretty respectable but if they wanna remain relevant, they have to understand that no one is too big to fail (as 2008 should've taught most insitutions) and follow through on their novel ideas (like the Livewire)

 

[bigpoppa]

All the harley boys thinking they too big to fail

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[kruzuki]

I love how a discussion about falling sales turns into a Harley riders bashing thread.

Quite simply, they are expensive discretionary items. Their core demographic is getting older. Harley has trikes in their line up now to address this. (Yes, I know about the Servicar.)

Their base model Sportsters aren't so affordable anymore. The 500/750 Street series is off the mark and not competitive with the market they want to compete with; but they have given them an inroad into foreign markets.

I don't get the bashing. I've owned over 20 bikes and my Super Glide is the most reliable bike I've owned, after riding in over 30k in 2 years. Regular maintenance people!

I'm not a 1%er, I don't wear pirate gear, I just like the style of the bike. The engine is a gorgeous piece of engineering.

And yes, the Japanese copied Harley with their cruiser styling. The original Dyna Superglide came out in 1971. The Japanese couldn't ignore the popularity of the bike and set out to create a more affordable versions for the masses, without the HD mystique.

 

[JTR]

I would have paid damn good money to watch one of you power rangers show up to dover a couple weeks ago to make fun of the pirates without your keyboard. Offer still stands for April though

 

[PLau]

I would have paid damn good money to watch one of you power rangers show up to dover a couple weeks ago to make fun of the pirates without your keyboard. Offer still stands for April though

In the grand scheme of things, I think Power Rangers could easily outdo pirates.

Just wait until they summon the Megazord.

 

[GreyGhost]

I would have paid damn good money to watch one of you power rangers show up to dover a couple weeks ago to make fun of the pirates without your keyboard. Offer still stands for April though

I went to Dover one winter. It was the biggest collection of camry's and pirates I have ever seen. Only a handful of bikes. It's strange to wear all that leather when you came in a car. We get it, you're at Dover, the odds are very good that you have a Harley.

I'm not bashing Harley's, more poser bashing. Harley is well represented, as are SS, Bobbers and probably almost every other style of bike (except KLR, I've never seen a poser on a KLR).

 

[bigpoppa]

I would have paid damn good money to watch one of you power rangers show up to dover a couple weeks ago to make fun of the pirates without your keyboard. Offer still stands for April though

What are the timmies angels gonna do? Bust out a pumpkin spice latte?

 

[blackcamaro]

6 pages in and there still isn't a comparison of year to date sales between Harley and the entire motorcycle industry. I've looked online and the closest I got was Q3 U.S. sales were down 9% for the industry and Harley was down 8%. I don't think the industry itself is all that healthy and many problems brought up here are problems faced by ALL the manufacturers and not just Harley.

On the pirate front, I find the metric cruiser guys are just as bad if not worse for the pirate gear.

 

[Face]

6 pages in and there still isn't a comparison of year to date sales between Harley and the entire motorcycle industry. I've looked online and the closest I got was Q3 U.S. sales were down 9% for the industry and Harley was down 8%. I don't think the industry itself is all that healthy and many problems brought up here are problems faced by ALL the manufacturers and not just Harley.

But since most other manufacturers have a much broader representation of bike types (SS, sport, sport touring, adventure, dirt, dual sport, naked, etc), wouldn't you have to agree that they are in a better position to ride out industry fluctuations. Call it the balanced portfolio approach. Not to mention jet skis, generators, atvs, pianos and a range of other products offered by different manufacturers. Life can be risky when you're a one trick pony.

 

[bigpoppa]

But since most other manufacturers have a much broader representation of bike types (SS, sport, sport touring, adventure, dirt, dual sport, naked, etc), wouldn't you have to agree that they are in a better position to ride out industry fluctuations. Call it the balanced portfolio approach. Not to mention jet skis, generators, atvs, pianos and a range of other products offered by different manufacturers. Life can be risky when you're a one trick pony.

Do Tshirts count? thats diversification...(right?)

In all seriousness though, I like harleys(some of them atleast) wish they would smarten the **** up, so they dont die out when the metaphorical Asteroid hits(oldsmobile, pontiac anyone?)


I also read kawasaki is in aerospace(****ing impressive if you ask me)

 

[bitzz]

6 pages in and there still isn't a comparison of year to date sales between Harley and the entire motorcycle industry. I've looked online and the closest I got was Q3 U.S. sales were down 9% for the industry and Harley was down 8%....

There ya go. Someone in this thread that ACTUALLY read and understood the big words in the article we're supposed to be commenting on.
The question should be: What is Harley doing RIGHT, that the other manufacturers are doing wrong?

Harley makes more per unit than any other manufacturer. I think Harley makes more from licensing, tshirts, pirate costumes and assless chaps, than they do from motorcycles.
Harley has been around longer than anyone else
...but no. They're doing it wrong.

Give your head's a shake. Something must be loose in there.
We get it, you don't like Harleys. That's OK. But it seems like lots of people do.

What Harley does BEST is marketing. World leaders in the field. Steve Jobs got the faithful to buy a $800 phone. Willy convinces his faithful to drop $35,000 on a bike.

 

[blackcamaro]

But since most other manufacturers have a much broader representation of bike types (SS, sport, sport touring, adventure, dirt, dual sport, naked, etc), wouldn't you have to agree that they are in a better position to ride out industry fluctuations. Call it the balanced portfolio approach. Not to mention jet skis, generators, atvs, pianos and a range of other products offered by different manufacturers. Life can be risky when you're a one trick pony.

Yes and no. A lot of the other manufacturers dealers seem to have a awful lot of new old stock sitting on the floor so maybe those manufacturers are producing too many different product lines. Yes they may have something for everybody but if the stuff isn't selling what does it matter? I agree that some diversification is a good thing in almost all business but it is always a balancing act.

Powersports as a whole seems dead. I'm 32 and most of my buddies could have a care less about toys, fast cars etc. I think those 10 years younger then me are even less interested.

Bigpoppa, T-shirt sales absolutely count. It all adds up. Kawasaki motors is small division of Kawasaki heavy industries. The Japanese manufacturers are into EVERYTHING. Motorcycles are almost just for fun at this point.

 

[JTR]

Do Tshirts count? thats diversification...(right?)

In all seriousness though, I like harleys(some of them atleast) wish they would smarten the **** up, so they dont die out when the metaphorical Asteroid hits(oldsmobile, pontiac anyone?)


I also read kawasaki is in aerospace(****ing impressive if you ask me)

Your thinking is the right latitude, wrong direction. Oldsmobile and Pontiac were axed because they were excess copies of the same models. It was an example of a company with too many badges and models in the line-up. Where does that correlate with HD? It doesn't. It is a bit closer to the asians, which as earlier mentioned, spread themselves thin trying to cover all the bases and end up with excess stock selling at fire sale prices. If you don't believe in the 30% markdowns, check sturgess cycle next season, they always have non currents cut that deep. None listed on their site right now, but I bet there is something on the floor. You just won't see that with HD. You know where else you used to see deep cuts on new non current vehicles? Pontiac, Oldsmobile.

 

[bigpoppa]

Your thinking is the right latitude, wrong direction. Oldsmobile and Pontiac were axed because they were excess copies of the same models(1). It was an example of a company with too many badges and models in the line-up. Where does that correlate with HD? It doesn't.(2)It is a bit closer to the asians, which as earlier mentioned, spread themselves thin trying to cover all the bases and end up with excess stock selling at fire sale prices. If you don't believe in the 30% markdowns, check sturgess cycle next season(3), they always have non currents cut that deep. None listed on their site right now, but I bet there is something on the floor. You just won't see that with HD.(4) You know where else you used to see deep cuts on new non current vehicles? Pontiac, Oldsmobile.

1. They were axed because GM was going bankurupt, in an attempt to appease the lenders(us govt) that they (gm) can get their **** toghether

2. It does, the correlation is between large, slow to adapt companies who fail to see/adapt to the emerging trends and changes in the market place, or willfully ignore them.
This is not the first report about harley losing profit, and failing to capture their target demographics as the current crop gets old and dies

3. This might apply to cruisers, but that demographic makes up about 5% of their businesses(yamaha isn't staying in business because they sell a lot of V stars)
Their popular models usually sell ABOVE asking price(try buying an FZ 09 at a dealership)

4. Thats because harley is resting on an old(albeit faithful customer base that is dying) Harley is a cult, and they need new members if they are going to stay afloat. This is different from a motorcycle company, which is run like a business, and is willing to adapt, and change if need be to survive or grow. They are trying (desperately i might add) to catch that new, young demographic so they can stay in business longer than the current glide rider who will be dying soon. (Report after report seems to suggest they have been failing at this)

 

[Roadghost]

6 pages in and there still isn't a comparison of year to date sales between Harley and the entire motorcycle industry. I've looked online and the closest I got was Q3 U.S. sales were down 9% for the industry and Harley was down 8%. I don't think the industry itself is all that healthy and many problems brought up here are problems faced by ALL the manufacturers and not just Harley.

On the pirate front, I find the metric cruiser guys are just as bad if not worse for the pirate gear.

I did allude to that. There has been about five of these Harley scare articles over the year. Nothing about the industry decline as a whole. Nope, it's all about what's wrong with HD, which leads me to suspect there's some stock speculation going on here. As the market declined, Harley Davidson actually increased their market share. We get all these pundits saying HD needs to move to performance bikes when the performance market shows all signs of collapsing. It appears that the real problem is that Millennials have no interest in motorcycles. We can speculate about that, but there are plenty of SS, off-road, touring, dual sport and cruisers to choose from - but few kids are buying in. Indian being the exception, and perhaps BMW, the industry needs to take a good look at itself.

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