"“It’s not the other vehicle you need to worry about.”" - Halton POlice

[Baggsy]

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Seriously ? "what do you learn on the track that is useful on the street"

I got one word for you fellas and that word is "Brakes"

Comfort with your brakes, comfort during braking while in the middle of a turn, comfort standing a bike up in the middle of a turn to avoid an obstacle.


A track "day" (not racing) is just a big road where there are no cars and all the bikes are going the same direction.

"What could we learn while going all in the same direction without having to worry about cars, on the same stretch of road, all day as much as we want?" - a ton.

You don't stop completely on a track. You do on the street. You can practice braking in a parking lot at 30-40 km/h. Anyways, do you intend to ride on the street the same way that you do on the track? If not, then you have to make compromises on what you learn on the track, and then unlearn some of it for the street. That's all I'm saying. Some things that you could learn on the track, might be good for some situations on the street, but some will also be bad. How do you reconcile the two? You don't practice emergency braking by trying at high speed until you lock up and crash, and then hope to remember to back off a little after you recover, do you?

The idea for street riding is to set reasonable goals, not test limits. Traction is much more variable on the street than on the track.

Anyways, that's all I'll say on the subject.

Everyone however, should be trying to improve their riding, and their driving.
That's the way I take the not the other vehicle.
If everyone blames someone else, then who is actually guilty?
In fact, it might be all of us, a little. So let's get better.

 

[unfaZed]

You don't stop completely on a track. You do on the street. You can practice braking in a parking lot at 30-40 km/h. Anyways, do you intend to ride on the street the same way that you do on the track? If not, then you have to make compromises on what you learn on the track, and then unlearn some of it for the street. That's all I'm saying. Some things that you could learn on the track, might be good for some situations on the street, but some will also be bad. How do you reconcile the two? You don't practice emergency braking by trying at high speed until you lock up and crash, and then hope to remember to back off a little after you recover, do you?

These are some really good points and I have a hard time disagreeing with you - the only part of what you are saying that I DO disagree with is that you need to reconcile the skills - everything you learn on the track, even hanging off (or at least understanding why you hang off the bike) is at least 10% useful and helpful on the street.

Surviving street situations is 90% comfort 10% skill - feeling comfortable on your motorcycle because you've exceeded the speed limit on the road you're on at the race track will give you the confidence you need to put those street specific skills (like emergency stopping) to good use.

I personally don't hang off the bike for everyday riding unless I'm doing it on purpose having some fun - but I do get over to one side of the seat and brace myself for braking in a subdued version of the way I would do it at the track.

TL;DR: There is no downside to learning track skills, but I agree with Baggsy that you can't substitute them completely for the street - some things like emergency stopping and u-turns you should practice in a parking lot or other safe area.

 

[Megamaniac]

You don't stop completely on a track. You do on the street. You can practice braking in a parking lot at 30-40 km/h. Anyways, do you intend to ride on the street the same way that you do on the track? If not, then you have to make compromises on what you learn on the track, and then unlearn some of it for the street. That's all I'm saying. Some things that you could learn on the track, might be good for some situations on the street, but some will also be bad. How do you reconcile the two? You don't practice emergency braking by trying at high speed until you lock up and crash, and then hope to remember to back off a little after you recover, do you?

The idea for street riding is to set reasonable goals, not test limits. Traction is much more variable on the street than on the track.

Anyways, that's all I'll say on the subject.

Everyone however, should be trying to improve their riding, and their driving.
That's the way I take the not the other vehicle.
If everyone blames someone else, then who is actually guilty?
In fact, it might be all of us, a little. So let's get better.

After reading that almost felt like breaking into a rendition of O 'Canada

 

[Jayv]

You don't stop completely on a track. You do on the street. You can practice braking in a parking lot at 30-40 km/h. Anyways, do you intend to ride on the street the same way that you do on the track? If not, then you have to make compromises on what you learn on the track, and then unlearn some of it for the street. That's all I'm saying. Some things that you could learn on the track, might be good for some situations on the street, but some will also be bad. How do you reconcile the two? You don't practice emergency braking by trying at high speed until you lock up and crash, and then hope to remember to back off a little after you recover, do you?

The idea for street riding is to set reasonable goals, not test limits. Traction is much more variable on the street than on the track.

Anyways, that's all I'll say on the subject.

Everyone however, should be trying to improve their riding, and their driving.
That's the way I take the not the other vehicle.
If everyone blames someone else, then who is actually guilty?


In fact, it might be all of us, a little. So let's get better.

So what happens when you need to emergency brake at speeds of 60km/h and up, parking lot braking practice is great to do at the start of the season to knock the rust off, but that's about it.

Do a track day once, you'll understand the benefits.

 

[Brian P]

Seriously ? "what do you learn on the track that is useful on the street"

I got one word for you fellas and that word is "Brakes"

And a phrase: "you go where you look".

 

[Brian P]

I should add that the closest I've had to a near-death experience in the last few years was in Halton region, on 15th sideroad, in the section between 25 and Trafalgar ... and it was because a car stopped at the stop sign (no 4-way stop at this intersection) and then started pulling out to cross the road just as I was coming. I aimed for the space where the car wasn't - in the opposite-direction lane - and passed through the intersection in front of the car which was now blocking the eastbound lane.

Yes, it is the other vehicle that I will continue to worry about.

 

[ZX600]

Let's see:
- Braking techniques.
- Throttle Control.
- Understanding and practicing (even through most times not by choice) the limits of the bike - for example what happens when an object appears in the middle of the road while you are leaning or turning, we are used to leaning more to avoid said object which in most cases is another rider, street riders instead of leaning are used to applying the brakes which stands them up.
- We also practice looking way ahead of where we are going avoiding target fixation, street riders are commonly trapped into target fixation.

These are just some. An example, a group of about 8/10 of us went ridding to Pennsylvanian, we took a road that is about 30 km of twisties, some stayed behind but a group of 5 of us decided to go FAST, 4 are SOAR racers including me, one was a street rider, guess which one didn't make it to the end of the road?

You asked for examples and I am giving them, not trying to argue since I know that is all you do with me.

Edit: Oh I see that you think that practicing at a high level of performance does nothing to help someone on a normal street situation, lol wow you are obtuse, this is not an insult, this is a fact.

The thing is that this is one of those that I can't really tell you, you have to experience it, so go get some track instruction, spend some time practicing like we do and then if you still believe there is no point your arguments will be more valuable, until then you are kind of making a fool out of yourself

Anyways, Shame on the police department for this stupid campaign, this just reaffirms that police are there to make money and not to save the public.

Why not list off and explain which track techniques would be useful on the street and which would be dangerous? I didn't see Canada's Worst driver taking people to the track first episode. The goal of street riding is to get from point A to point B safely. Speed and time don't need to factor into the equation. That's one big difference between the two disciplines. So where is this data to back up any claims of track being useful? Maybe the track people can step up, instead of name calling.



Old data from U.S. but just under 50%, and that will most likely be only reported cases. Lots of people will crash and take off, if the bike is still rideable. https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811149

 

[Neil_V]

I should add that the closest I've had to a near-death experience in the last few years was in Halton region, on 15th sideroad, in the section between 25 and Trafalgar ... and it was because a car stopped at the stop sign (no 4-way stop at this intersection) and then started pulling out to cross the road just as I was coming. I aimed for the space where the car wasn't - in the opposite-direction lane - and passed through the intersection in front of the car which was now blocking the eastbound lane.

Yes, it is the other vehicle that I will continue to worry about.

I'll echo that.

My ride stories seldom contain "oh ****" moments but one that sticks with me was a right of way issue. A blue blur of a minivan flying through a stop sign, completely oblivious. 80+ I'm sure.

That said rider error is a huge issue. Watch a few crash compilations on YT; I'd say 40% are single vehicle, but of that 60% that involve a cage, a large portion are riders putting themselves in horrible positions.

 

[FLSTC]

Hmmmm 87%... This could be 29 motorcyclists that died or had life-altering-injuries in Halton last year. I challenge Griff to find all these news stories.

i'm calling Bull5h1t on Halton Regional Police. I think this is just fluff added to a summer/weekend blitz focused on motorcyclists. I rode my Harley through Hockley a couple of weeks back - prolly ****** off someone.

 

[Bagman]

LOL - how did this spiral into a debate about track riding and calling BS on stats from the HRPS. It's all rather secondary to a pretty basic message for all motorcyclists. Plain and simple, they just want you to know - "Don't ride like a jackass, and the likelihood of you not crashing/dying is pretty good! Cops are the ones that have to scrape your dead corpse off the pavement with their road-kill shovel. Pretty sure they are not interested in doing that or seeing your mangled flesh to begin with. So a mid-season safety campaign to remind you (which shouldn't even be there job) to try and be safe is pretty harmless.

It's also Halton doing it for their own region. Pretty sure their boots on the ground know what they seen - unlike all the interweb-knowitalls on this forum. lol.


..and to just add fire to the flame.... trackriding skillz really don't translate or have anything to do with being a safe rider on the street.

 

[Brian P]

..and to just add fire to the flame.... trackriding skillz really don't translate or have anything to do with being a safe rider on the street.

... says someone who's never had any track experience.

 

[Riceburner]

And how many close calls, where a diligent rider avoids an unsafe lane change, left turn into traffic, U-turn in front of a motorcycle... etc go unreported or unrecorded. ......

I've lost count long ago.

.... trackriding skillz really don't translate or have anything to do with being a safe rider on the street.

+-1 to a point. It does have the benefit of knowing your bike (if it's the same one you run on the street or similar), but street riding includes much more than just bike control. Running the twisties in the boonies benefits from track experience somewhat. Riding downtown TO, not so much. Different skill set needed.

 

[Bagman]

... says someone who's never had any track experience.

Indeed, I haven't. Love too, but no money. I'm not baiting, but honestly.. provide me rationale arguments of things you learn on the track that you couldn't learn on the street/parking lot/backroad that directly translate to safe riding on the road.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking:

- can't argue leaning skillz, because by the time you're going that fast on the street for those skillz too apply you're going too fast for safe street riding.
- can't argue threshold braking. You can find empty roads and practice.

IMO, years of experience behind the wheel of a car (which is safer in an accident) practicing safe and good driving habits behind translate to safe riding.

 

[Brian P]

"You go where you look" - therefore, look where you want to go - is THE most important thing from track experience that will translate to ALL street riding. Look through the corner to the line that you want to take through it. Don't look at the gravel patches, look at the spaces between them. Don't look at the car, look at the space around it.

The best street riders that I know all have at least some racing experience ... and the common factor is that they rarely crash.

Going to a track day will not magically turn an incompetent rider into Valentino Rossi. There are some riders (I can think of a couple) who are sloppy and careless, and went to the track to be sloppy and careless away from cops. They're still not very good, but the experience taught them something and they may yet improve and stop crashing as much.

I've seen one of the infamous law-abiding cop-defenders from past days on this forum ride. I wouldn't categorize him as a good rider. Not crashing because of being as slow as molasses doesn't count. There's another long-time member of this forum who IS a cop (but keeps a low profile about it), who I've ridden with many times, who IS very good.

 

[Bagman]

"You go where you look" - therefore, look where you want to go - is THE most important thing from track experience that will translate to ALL street riding. Look through the corner to the line that you want to take through it. Don't look at the gravel patches, look at the spaces between them. Don't look at the car, look at the space around it. The best street riders that I know all have at least some racing experience ... and the common factor is that they rarely crash.

I hear ya, but to me that's kind of a weak one. It's a skill that directly translates from on the road to track and vice versa. That kind of skill can be developed with years of driving and/or riding experience on the road. You go where you look is nothing more than a constant reminder you need to say to yourself and practice every time you're out riding. Looking around cars, through the turn, open spaces, possible problems, all of that (IMO) is more relevantly developed on the road where it exists, rather than a track. I chuckle at your comment about the best street riders have some racing experience because they rarely crash. The best street riders should never crash? Of course, curiously, how do they crash?

Indeed, going slow as molasses isn't the answer to be being safe, but going quicker than you should be, because you have the skills to back it up and then hitting dirt or something unforeseen just threw all your track experience out the window and you makes not the best street rider.

How about tight u-turns? That's a skill not many at all can accomplish and would be pretty pointless (and never practiced) on a track and pretty useful on the street.

 

[Brian P]

I chuckle at your comment about the best street riders have some racing experience because they rarely crash. The best street riders should never crash? Of course, curiously, how do they crash?

You mis-quoted me ... and/or you misunderstood the way it was originally worded.

 

[jc100]

"You go where you look" is the first thing I was ever taught on a bike and it wasn't on a track, it was in a school playground before getting the learners permit to ride a bike under graduated licensing in the UK. In the same country not one single insurance company will give you a break on insurance from attending a track school but they will give you a break on insurance from attending advanced street riding schools. Insurance companies are usually pretty good with playing the odds in their favour so perhaps they know something else? Perhaps it's because the primary goal of a track school is to get from A to B as fast as you can while on the street it's to get from A to B as safely as you can while dealing with obstacles you'll never find on a track (deer, opposing traffic, pedestrians, gravel, roadworks, potholes, pedestrians etc), speed is not a factor unless you are riding too slow and are a hazard to other traffic.

If I wanted to find the limits of my bike a track is exactly where I would take it though, exploring the limits of any vehicle is more than a little dumb on the street. I have no real desire to reach those limits, I like a nice big safety margin when I'm riding. Perhaps that's not enough of a thrill for some, for me I still have plenty of fun and in safety without attracting too much attention just riding within that safety margin.

As far as good street riders go, in my book that's one that consistently rides safely without causing an accident to themselves or to others. You can add style points, or speed points if you like, but for street riding the first part of this sentence is all you need.

 

[Neil_V]

I've seen one of the infamous law-abiding cop-defenders from past days on this forum ride. I wouldn't categorize him as a good rider. Not crashing because of being as slow as molasses doesn't count. There's another long-time member of this forum who IS a cop (but keeps a low profile about it), who I've ridden with many times, who IS very good.

May not be the same person, but I know of someone who matches the profile. Good guy

 

[inreb]

I know a guy with great family values, appears to say and do all the right things, and makes an honest living. He's a very good rider. Not cop good but good enough. I've ridden with him. Ride safe everybody.

edit: I know a guy who works in the prison system, guard I believe. I'm not sure if he's on this site. I wouldn't bet against it. He might be a lurker. (see guard) Anyway, he appears middle aged plus. Never heard of him crashing. Maybe he's not a braggar? I'm going to assume he's a competent rider. Maybe not cop competent, but good enough.

 

[MacDoc]

The stats are ...60% of riders will not have any kind of accident ( bikes falling over excepted ).

Stats also say riders are 23% less likely to have accidents in their cage than non-riders.....so they are already safer drivers.

My initial reaction is yeah ...it IS the the other vehicle to worry about.

Case in point today down under

[video=youtube;TmDO_Y9D-LU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmDO_Y9D-LU&feature=youtu.be[/video]

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