H-D Livewire pricing...

[mimico_polak]

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What's the point of an electric motorcycle? I didn't get it to stand out, let's start there. For me it was the lack of maintenance mostly. I live in a condo tower so I can't do bike work where I live, and quite frankly I don't really want to be futzing around when I could just be riding. No winterizing/de-winterizing, fluid changes, chain maintenance, etc etc. Just turn on and go. The torque still makes me grin, the lack of gears took way less getting used to than I expected, and the lack of noise is fun. What's especially positive that doesn't get mentioned much is the lack of heat generation - so much more comfortable to ride in the summer. Of course on the downside, I can't hug the gas tank in winter.

But that's me. It works for me because I'm not a tourer, I don't go for days/week long rides, I just commute (30km daily) and tool around the GTA for the most part. If I go further, I plan a stop around a charger and grab a meal. No big deal. Obviously that's not going to work for a lot of people - great, move on. You ride your ride, I'll ride mine, as long as we're both riding.

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And how do you like it? I've wanted one for a while but simply out of my price range for the time being.
How does insurance treat it? They typically ask for engine size...but this one doesn't have an engine per se...
How long does it charge? L1/L2?
Cheapest one I see on Kijiji right now is 10.5k which is 2x my budget for what I bought my Rebel for.

 

[r3r3r3]

I don't understand the confusion on this price. For one thing, the pricing is right in HD's ballpark. Second, have you guys ever seen the pricing of a tesla? any tesla? And they pull that money hundreds of times every day.

BTW, I see some names of people who have said they don't like HD because they're too behind the times. Now they jump out in front of literally everybody in terms of tech, and you all expected it to be cheap. Amazing.

Just because Harley charges exorbitant sticker prices doesn't mean its a sound business decision. Their stock is at half the value it was 5 years ago, and the affordability seems to be the driving cause of that. There just isn't a lot of people who can go out and drop 40k on a toy - especially one that is a newer/unproven technology.

IMO they are chasing a target audience that doesn't exist. The V-Rod is proof enough that seasoned Harley riders will stick with what they are familiar with. The younger generation, which is usually more open to change/new technology, simply cannot afford 40k for a bike with so many limitations. at 460 pounds this is not a light nimble bike for the city, with a 110mile range its not a good highway cruiser.

And then you have to consider their competition. For 22k you can get a Zero SR with slightly better acceleration, range, weight, etc. + the backing of a company that has been making electric motorcycles for the better part of a decade. Harley can't just rely on their name to sell this bike - to the average person on Yonge street this is just another E-bike with a fancy fairing buzzing by.

 

[Trials]

H-D has one thing that does excel. The largest motorcycle dealership network that ever existed with just shy of 1500 dealerships world wide.
... too bad about their product.

 

[TwistedKestrel]

Now they jump out in front of literally everybody in terms of tech, and you all expected it to be cheap. Amazing.

There's a pretty wide gap between $37K and "cheap". Relatively speaking, Teslas are in the same price bracket as normal human luxury vehicles. MSRP on a top-flight 2019 Goldwing Tour DCT Airbag is $35K... only a little less, sure, but they're not even on the same planet in terms of capabilities.

IDK, there still aren't many consumer electric motos on the market and pricing aside, the Livewire is by far the most appealing to me. I want it to succeed. Maybe they are targeting really low numbers for the first year, and $37K will get it up to whatever their sales projections are.

Edit: You know what? I'm not sure I'm being fair on capabilities. Harley put adjustable suspension on it, and normal 17" wheels. (?!?!?!) I think this might actually make it the sportiest bike Harley has ever made LOL

 

[Trials]

I'll be amazed if the first production run is sufficient to even put 1 unit in each dealership!
So far it's little more then a 5 year long marketing ploy, lots of us here have sat on one and even spun up the rear wheel, but someidiot went and bolted its front axle to the ground.

 

[anterabae]

And how do you like it? I've wanted one for a while but simply out of my price range for the time being.
How does insurance treat it? They typically ask for engine size...but this one doesn't have an engine per se...
How long does it charge? L1/L2?
Cheapest one I see on Kijiji right now is 10.5k which is 2x my budget for what I bought my Rebel for.

Love it love it love it! I find I enjoy riding more now because of it.

Insurance companies have the Zero models in their options. I went from a 98 Ninja 500 to the DS 13.0 and my insurance stayed basically the same.

The charge time also depends on the model. I took two batteries to increase range, so my charge time is ~9 hours for L1, an hour for L2. I find the stats listed on their website are pretty true to life.

Definitely expensive, I lucked out with a sweet severance package that way more than covered the price.

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[mimico_polak]

Love it love it love it! I find I enjoy riding more now because of it.

Insurance companies have the Zero models in their options. I went from a 98 Ninja 500 to the DS 13.0 and my insurance stayed basically the same.

The charge time also depends on the model. I took two batteries to increase range, so my charge time is ~9 hours for L1, an hour for L2. I find the stats listed on their website are pretty true to life.

Definitely expensive, I lucked out with a sweet severance package that way more than covered the price.

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OK cool thanks! And what's their range like? You carry both batteries when you travel?

 

[HarleyHare]

HUGE amounts of money being thrown at Electric overseas and I am sure North America will follow.

Just came across this article:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-global-drive-to-electrify-cars-idUSKCN1P40G6

..Tom

The last gasoline/diesel engine slated to be made by VW is 2026, so it is coming up fast. What no one has been able to tell me is how we (Ontario) are going to replace the gasoline/road tax. Are there going to be two meters at your home? One for the home and the other for your car and which will be billed at a higher rate including a road tax?

BTW, notice how VW has billions in resources even after dieselgate? That's because it is owned by the German government and as everybody knows governments run departments and companies very inefficiently. And at the same time they don't need to worry about shareholder dividends (look at how GM was and still is being ruined by concern for payouts over and above sustainable quality products). For example #1 automaker VW Group produced about 11.3 million vehicles worldwide in 2018, while employing ~650,000, whereas #2 automaker Toyota made about 10.7 million vehicles with only ~350,000 employees. About half the labour force! One pays dividends to shareholders while the other builds reserves to fund things like electric grid expansion. And as odd as it sounds, perhaps that may be a good thing to do for evolution in transportation?

 

[TwistedKestrel]

Volkswagen AG is a publicly traded company, 11.8% owned by the State of Lower Saxony, who has 20% of voting rights. The German government does not wholly own VW or have a majority share.

https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/InvestorRelations/shares/shareholder-structure.html

 

[anterabae]

OK cool thanks! And what's their range like? You carry both batteries when you travel?

Yeah no choice on the batteries. You choose what you want up front and they're not removable. Well, except on the offroaders, bit if I remember you can't double up the battery on those. My experience has been 200-220km on city streets, about half that for highway. Mine's a 2018..the 2019 models have increased range by about 10%.

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[HarleyHare]

Volkswagen AG is a publicly traded company, 11.8% owned by the State of Lower Saxony, who has 20% of voting rights. The German government does not wholly own VW or have a majority share.

https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/InvestorRelations/shares/shareholder-structure.html

I wanted to buy VW common stock just after dieselgate hit knowing that common stock would dive then rebound, but could only find VW preferred stock. I could not find a listing of VW common. VW at the end of WWII had its factory rebuilt by the British Corp of Engineers and in 1949 gave the company back to the new German government. Now I'm miffed that I missed this opportunity in not finding VW common.

However still makes me scratch my head that they have twice the labour force as its nearest competitor, but with Lower Saxony having 20% control maybe that is all that is necessary to take control and appease the German labour unions by hiring such a huge work force?

 

[Brian P]

The last gasoline/diesel engine slated to be made by VW is 2026...

This is not true; it is a misinterpretation of a statement that VW made a little while ago.

What VW actually stated, is that the next generation of combustion engines, which is slated for introduction in 2026, will be the last generation of combustion engines that they develop. In other words, they won't be developing any new internal combustion engines after 2026, but they will continue to use the engines that they introduce in 2026, until the end, whenever that might be.

Bear in mind that the VW EA827-series engine (their traditional water-cooled in-line four) started production in 1972 and descendants of that engine are in production to this day. (It left the North American market somewhere around 2014, this is the engine nicknamed the "2.slow", and it was the base engine in the Mk6 Jetta for the first couple of years)

 

[GreyGhost]

gas tax replacement.

The simplest solution is at plate renewal. You already report the mileage driven for the year, they just need to tax that at 0.10 $/km or whatever they decide they need for their slush fund. Maybe 0.09 for PIEV as they presumably used some gas. 0 for ICE. Or cut the gas tax all together and everybody pays 0.10. Misreporting mileage would result in a substantial penalty.

 

[Mad Mike]

The simplest solution is at plate renewal. You already report the mileage driven for the year, they just need to tax that at 0.10 $/km or whatever they decide they need for their slush fund. Maybe 0.09 for PIEV as they presumably used some gas. 0 for ICE. Or cut the gas tax all together and everybody pays 0.10. Misreporting mileage would result in a substantial penalty.

Add $.02/gram of cannabis.

 

[Trials]

Wait until you see the bill to dispose of your batteries,
which will probably be applied up front along with your tire disposal tax.

If that don't do it they will probably make all 400 series highways toll roads, that would be pretty evil.
Maybe start with the U.S. transport trucks that are using our 401 as a superslab shortcut.

 

[Flywheel]

Bear in mind that the VW EA827-series engine (their traditional water-cooled in-line four) started production in 1972 and descendants of that engine are in production to this day. (It left the North American market somewhere around 2014, this is the engine nicknamed the "2.slow", and it was the base engine in the Mk6 Jetta for the first couple of years)

Yes, the base Jettas still featured the 2.slow for the 2015 model year. They also offered the oddball 5-cylinder and the TDI. I know they were reaching down to compete with the Japanese, but it seemed a touch cynical. However, I am not an accountant.

 

[wonderings]

Yeah no choice on the batteries. You choose what you want up front and they're not removable. Well, except on the offroaders, bit if I remember you can't double up the battery on those. My experience has been 200-220km on city streets, about half that for highway. Mine's a 2018..the 2019 models have increased range by about 10%.

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That is another bad thing with the electric bikes for anything other then commuting. It goes opposite with fuel. In town riding I would say would generally be the worst for fuel consumption and highway speeds on a tour will be the best. No way do I want to get less range when touring on top of the time it takes to charge the battery again.

I love the idea for commuting and looked at the possibility of one for around town, but the model I like is $50,000 USD and I am NOT that interested at that price point.

 

[V-Tom]

...
Bear in mind that the VW EA827-series engine (their traditional water-cooled in-line four) started production in 1972 and descendants of that engine are in production to this day. (It left the North American market somewhere around 2014, this is the engine nicknamed the "2.slow", and it was the base engine in the Mk6 Jetta for the first couple of years)

Brian,

Is the current 2 liter turbo motor (used in my GTI and many other corporate models) a direct descendant of that motor or was it a clean sheet? ( DFI, Balance Shafts, etc.) I have to say it is a nice motor... I was concerned with getting the 2.0 turbo after my VR6 24V.. the VR6 was so nice and smooth!

..Tom

 

[AllistonGT]

BTW, notice how VW has billions in resources even after dieselgate? That's because it is owned by the German government and as everybody knows governments run departments and companies very inefficiently. And at the same time they don't need to worry about shareholder dividends (look at how GM was and still is being ruined by concern for payouts over and above sustainable quality products). For example #1 automaker VW Group produced about 11.3 million vehicles worldwide in 2018, while employing ~650,000, whereas #2 automaker Toyota made about 10.7 million vehicles with only ~350,000 employees. About half the labour force! One pays dividends to shareholders while the other builds reserves to fund things like electric grid expansion. And as odd as it sounds, perhaps that may be a good thing to do for evolution in transportation?

VW's controlling shareholders is a Porsche holding company with Porsche family members on the board.

Porsche Automobil Holding SE engages in the development, manufacture, and trade of vehicles. It operates and distributes its products under the following brands: Volkswagen Passenger Cars, Audi, SEAT, ŠKODA, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, Ducati, Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles, Scania, and MAN.

 

[Brian P]

Brian,

Is the current 2 liter turbo motor (used in my GTI and many other corporate models) a direct descendant of that motor or was it a clean sheet? ( DFI, Balance Shafts, etc.) I have to say it is a nice motor... I was concerned with getting the 2.0 turbo after my VR6 24V.. the VR6 was so nice and smooth!

..Tom

The current-production models would be EA888-based. But VW engine codes are a murky mess of gobbledygook, and even the newest designs still share the 88mm bore spacing that has been cast in stone for VW water-cooled in-line engines since the 1970s. Even the 5 cylinder used that bore spacing. Somewhere in some huge engine block machining plant, there must be some enormous un-changeable machining center that is set up to machine cylinder bores 88mm apart and nothing else. "Thou shalt not change this dimension"

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